Lucas Iverson

On this week's episode I sit down with an old friend and supremely talented Lucas Iverson. We discuss everything from his time working on HBO Max's second season of The Pitt to our silly (and my embarrassing) history with the Tarantella.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

So, what I was doing last season, I was doing like a lot of games, like theater games, like verbal theater games. But I thought it would be kind of interesting if we tried a theater game that we learned at Adelphi. It's not really a theater game, but the do you remember the Tarantella? Let's find out if we remember the Tarantella. I have a story to tell after this, but okay. This might be a train wreck. I was trying to think of it and I could only think of like 80% of it this morning.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

I have maybe 10. Oh shit.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Then this is my own. Let's go. And we just keep going until one of us or both of us die. Yeah, we'll mind meld it somehow. Okay. Ready, ready?

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Do you remember an inmiranda? Do you remember an in? And the tetting and the spreading of the straw for the bedding and the fleas that tease in the high pyrenees and the wine that tastes into the tar? And the tears and the jeers of the young muleteers under the line of the dark veranda. Do you remember an inn Miranda? Do you remember an in? And the tears and the cheers of the young muleteers and the who haven't got a penny and who weren't giving any and the hammer of the twirl of the tin? And the hip-hop hop and the clap of the penny and the penny of the bottom. No, no, no. The hip-hop happened. Dancing, glancing, backing and advancing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Backing romantic ting with the guitar? Yes. Do you remember an inn or do you remember a nin?

unknown 1:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Something about the waterfall or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Yeah. Is there a dragon in there? There's just a dragon in the mirror. I don't know. Donna would be so upset. I think she'd be thrilled at how far we have. That was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Honestly, I didn't res I didn't expect you to know any of it. With how well you behaved in class.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Welcome to Working Class Acts. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Working Class Acts Podcast. I'm your host.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

John Maloney.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Oh, he did it. You heard his voice just then. The person that I'm about to interview is a lovely. That was terrible. I need to start that again. I am joined today by such a lovely human being, an incredibly talented actor. We actually met an undergrad at a Delphi University out there on good old Long Island. And you can catch him now on season two of the Emmy Award-winning HBO Hit The Pit. Great rhyme. I am here. Whoa, I didn't even try that. I'm here with Lucas Iverson.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Hi. Hi, John.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

It's so good to see you, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Oh my god, it's been too long, man. Yeah, man. It's been a country mile of times.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Yeah. Well, I was trying to remember the last time. I feel like it was pro the last time I saw you, I think, was right before you were going to audition for grad school.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

This was probably true. Um, I don't know. We got together at that coffee place. We did. We talked grad school. Yeah. I don't think I saw you when I was there for callback weekend at Edwards. No, I don't think so. So it was remember when that was. But I peed next to you on the fifth floor. I think the day I auditioned, yeah. Did you? Or like sometime in that long day of the callbacks, I went to the bathroom and you were there. And we did next to each other.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Yes, we talked in the while peeing, which is controversial. Did we really? Oh, good. Oh, well, but that's just shows how, you know, there's a close bond here. I would do that for no other person. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

That means the world to me. I feel really included right now.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Well, that's amazing. I mean, you graduated from Yale, the grab program. How is that whole experience getting into there?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

I loved it. Yeah. I I loved Yale. Getting into Yale was great too, actually.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

It's fun. You know, you you find the place that I think is right for you. I think it's different for everybody. And it just feels like a continual series of yes. Yeah. And and I felt that with Yale very strongly.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

So I feel the same way when with NYU. It took me like two years to get in, and but there was just a sense of the place that like I I gelled with and I loved it. Um up there on the fifth floor. That fifth floor, that famous. That famous fifth floor. Um Lucas. John. Let's take it back to the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Where were you born? Where were you from?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Oh my gosh. That is the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

That is really the beginning. Um of your time.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Fun, fun, fun. Uh I was born in Baltimore, Maryland. Ah yes. And grew up there and then fled when I was 17 to Long Island. Fled. Fled. Couldn't get out of there fast enough.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Did you like growing up in Baltimore?

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Um, no. No. I mean, yes, because of my family. Of course. And it just felt like, you know, we were in the city, um, but we had like a a decent enough, nice, quietish neighborhood. And um but you still weren't allowed to like go play outside a ton. Really? You know what I mean? Um I was also like a very sick child. Oh. So I was feeling frail. Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Do you mind if I ask you like what what what you did were were you suffering from some sort of ailment or something?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

I was born with a uh birth defect disability thing. I had a lot of surgeries, I was in and out of hospitals, was like BFS with my doctors kind of thing. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, who I'm still in touch with now, and now being on the pit, so it's like a full.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

I was just gonna say, is that like, do you feel that that sort of experience maybe informed 100%?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

I mean it didn't inform I don't know if it informed my character on the pit so much because he is kind of a jerk. Um it took me a long I hated him for a long time of the season. Yeah. Um, but being a part of something that gives reverence to doctors. Yeah. What's the word for like when you pedestalize something, but it's right?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Oh, I don't know. I think reverence is a great word.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Maybe that is the word.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Put I mean I would just say put up on a pedestal, but that gives the impression that it's like you're you're raising it to too high of a height. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

That there's this there's this connotation of like falsehood or something not being completely deserving if we pedestalize it. Yeah, yeah. But it is accurate pedestal.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Oh, it is such a great show, dude. Honestly, it's like I am so in awe of so many moving parts on that show. So many moving parts, so many difficult scenarios. Yeah, that the show does also what I really love about the show is the show does such a great job of revealing the truth of like the grief that happens in hospitals, but then like the comic relief that comes like right next to these like horrible events. Yeah, it's just it's wild to watch, but it feels so authentic and it's really, really lovely. I will be honest, I have not gotten to the second season yet. Okay, I am nearing the end of the first and honest well, honestly, I was like, I binged a lot of it yesterday, and then after a while I had to take a break because it was just like, whoa, it's the the up close shots of incisions of people's bodies. I mean, like, it's very detailed. Yeah, it's extremely detailed.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

I mean, like, I would never ask, I never ask anybody to watch this show. Yeah, you know what I mean? I never hold it against somebody if they haven't. I know that it can be really intense. I experienced it as a viewer at first, yeah, and I was like, whoa, I need to chill the f out a little bit. Yeah, because it it's gruesome and graphic and also so emotional at points. Yeah. So it's uh it's it's a big ask to ask somebody to like watch this for me. Yeah, and that just feels so well.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Also, the the interesting aspect of it too is like in a sort of 24 style, yeah, it's just hour after hour after hour. So you just like feel this mounting tension that feels constant. Um, but yeah, dude, it's it's so good. I'm so proud of you. Um so Baltimore, then off to Adelphi.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Then off to Adelphi. Yes. Um, I started doing a little bit of theater in Baltimore.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

I was gonna say, yeah, where did you catch the proverbial bug?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Great question. I really struggled with friends growing up. Me too. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

That's kind of how I yeah, that's how I sort of found friends too.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

There was this one night where my mom was driving me home from school and I was like playing on my Game Boy or something. Of course, alone and miserable.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

I got my Game Boy over there.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

I've got a color that's in my being over there. That's gorgeous. Um and I uh was sad and alone, and she was like, You should audition for this school play. Oh. And I was like, okay. And rarely me saying yes to something instead of no.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Um, and then I learned a Shell Silverstein poem for when I was in middle school for the high school play. Can you believe it? Look at that. Ambitious. Wait, what was the play? Bleacher Bums.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Bleacher Bums? Did you know about this? No, but I I love the title.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

I don't know the playwright. I'm sorry to say, that's so embarrassing. It's like a one-act comedy that takes place over the course of a baseball game. Oh, fantastic. It's like romances, I think, if I remember right, come together and fall apart. I was not in the main cast.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

You were out there doing a poem.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Well, they were trying to cast an ensemble of dancing baseball players. Oh. Because they wanted to do it dinner theater style.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

And you would be a waiter and you'd have to do one dance where you toss bats back and forth.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Oh, so this was like at a proper theater. This wasn't like fighting. This was my high school. Oh, it was your high school. Middle school, high school. Totally is. You're like, okay, and you're also gonna be cooking the food.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

But I mean, like, I went to Williamstown, you know what I mean? Do me too. If you say one is you're like, I'll do anything.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

I have to do everything, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

And I'll just say, both great experiences. Yeah, yeah. Can't complain.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

You know what's so funny about that? I was talking to uh my my girlfriend just now before this, and I was like, I think I'm gonna try and do the Tarantella with uh with Lucas. But um what's funny why that connects to Williamstown is because when I was there they were doing a production. When were you there? Uh I was uh there 2011. Okay. And uh, but we were one of the productions they were doing was a doll's house. And in that, um, what's the lead's name? Uh Nina or Nora? Nora, thank you. Nora is dis dances the Tarantella.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Terantella, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

I did not know that there, I didn't know the doll's house well enough at the time, which is like embarrassing. But we were backstage, we were doing some all-night strike or whatever. God, um, and people were like, Yeah, the Tarantella is very hard. I'm interested to see how uh Lily Rabe does it, because she was playing Nora at the time, and I was like, Oh, I can do the Tarantella. And people were like, Really? And I was like, Yeah, I could do it right now. They're like, serious? I literally started doing and they're like, What the fuck? And I'm like, Do you remember Anin Miranda? Do you remember Anin's? And like I get like halfway through it, and one of them just steps in and goes, What are you doing? And I was like, Come on, come on, the Tarantella. The Tarantella's a dance. I mean, literally, though, that is what happened. I'm like, it is one of the top five most embarrassing things because I had Williamstown was such a like such a back and forth experience for me because I was very like I was very grateful to be there. Uh I got to be a part of the cabaret, which was really fun. Yeah. Uh, and Louis Black was hosting at the time. It was really it was just like a really great time, and also got to sing backup for like really some incredible people, even Gavin Creel, which was like such a treat. He is he was maybe present. He was in such an incredible, incredible performer and singer. Um, but uh that it was before I was like drinking or partying or anything, and as you know, Williamstown is in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, yeah. Um it's a beautiful little town, but like the culture is like at the end of the day, you go to the bar and that's how you hang out. And like I was just not, first of all, I was not of age. Uh and also I wasn't drinking. So you can't get me, cops.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Um Statue of Limitations.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Statue of Limitations for a thing I did not do. But it but it was an amazing I scot to see Sam Rockwell in Streetcarn in Desire. Like it was a great season and it was like such an amazing space. Um but as you know were you were there as an apprentice?

SPEAKER_01 12:31

I was there as an apprentice in 2016, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Oh, so you see so you did a few wait, when okay, back to Adelphi.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

What year were you again in the first time?

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I started in 2013. Didn't you graduate in 2013? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

No, 2013. Oh, that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

So you were so your first year when I was we were the first generational gap, but we had so many mutual friends. Yes, we did. That I think I learned of you and met you that same year that I began attending.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Yeah, definitely. Like I definitely I had a lot of a lot of my closest friends, I would say, were in the years below me. Right. Um but Tim. Yeah, Tim. Steve was in your class, I think. Uh Michael. Michael, uh Kate McLeod. Yeah. Who's been on the podcast?

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Oh, shout out Kate McLeod.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Big fan. So Adelphi, you got out of Adelphi.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Got out of a Delphi. Jumped into the real world. Jumped, I missed graduation because I had a regional theater gig. And I was so happy about that. Where where was it? Um, it was the Texas Shakespeare Festival. Fantastic. It was uh you know, you do the Urta's and all of that stuff. Or not the Urda's. What is that thing that Maggie takes us to?

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Um You know what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

I do know. Did you do this as well?

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Well, I did one that was in was it in Memphis? Yes, yes, yes. I know exactly what it is, and I'm totally blanking to. Um but yeah, it's like a unified audition. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Several regional theaters, some grad schools, but I think that one's mainly regional theaters.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah, Urta's is predominantly grad schools. Whatever the Urda equivalent. No, it's not the Urda's, it's uh something else. Um we went to that something we went to that something else. And um and there I was looking at all the jobs in advance, and I was like, ooh, the Texas Shakespeare Festival looks great. Ooh, Richard III and Cyroneau de Bergerac. Oh, now and I got it, and that was so lucky. Uh I was little intern, and there little intern? I was just a little intern.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

Oh, oh, I was like, who is that in Cyrene O or Richard III?

SPEAKER_01 14:26

The one character that overlaps.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

And I was intern, excuse me. I was little intern in Richard III and Cyrino.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

You don't remember him? He kills Richard. Huge part. Not to brag or little intern, huge part. No such thing as a small actor. Um that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Wait, so what was the intern? It was an internship for Texas Shakespeare?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yes. So there's like different types of internships that they have in their thing. And you're you have smaller parts in the main plays, like uh somebody's gotta be the messengers, you know, the the people who are.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Oh, so it's kind of like Williamstowns had like an intern program. Intern where it was like more than like non-union grad school.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

They they had the non-ac thing, and that had a little more prestige than those. Of course. Um, but this is like, oh, you're in much-doo, and you have to give the book when they're doing the hiding scene, and you come in and deliver this book. This guy, George Judy, I think he's uh a professor at LSU, he directed that. Amazing. Yeah, I I just fell in love with um that community. I thought the plays were really, really good. And I met who what would become my girlfriend for the next five and a half years there. Wow. So that was also so formative. Lovely. And we're still very close.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

That's great. It was great. It was such a beautiful, like life opening experience straight out of underground.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

And that's what the theater should be for. And that's what it should be for opening experiences.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

For the people on stage, screw everybody else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

So did you come back to New York City after that?

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Um back to New York. Yeah, what was what was like the the gap between you doing that regional gig and and deciding you wanted to go on to grad school? Was it a long period of time? Probably not.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

I was I think it was like three to four years. It was in that third or fourth year that um Leah, my partner at the time, sat me down and was like, I think you need to consider grad school. She had so she had gone to Carnegie Mellon. Oh, great, and had gotten representation out of school and was constantly auditioning for things and working, and uh being an excellent, amazing actor that she is, so talented and hardworking, well like really a great sort of role model for me while I was dating her, being like, Wow, you got this opportunity and you're capitalizing on it. Yeah, how do I get there? Yeah, and I really tried to get representation. I tried so hard.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Did you not get anything out of the Adele 5?

SPEAKER_01 17:06

No, if I remember right from Showcase, we had one agent RSVP, and then that person didn't show up. So we had like a couple of classes kind of thing. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was um tough.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Yeah, yeah. Showcase stuff out of undergrad programs, it's like it's yeah, it can be really difficult because you're like you're young and you're like looking for some sort of outside validation or or even just a tether to the outside world that's going to say, yeah, you're gonna keep moving forward. And I I for myself, I I freelanced with some people after Adelphi, and then it just fizzled out. And that sort of like, did you feel that sort of like abyss almost of like, how do I move forward from here? Or totally.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

I mean, the the image that I used constantly was that um it in comparison with Leah and myself, right? She had access to opportunities that I I want to just be able to get in those rooms. Yeah, not don't need to book a job, just wanted to be able to audition at that level. Len, I was you know, ushering at the public and stuff and watching plays all the time and being like, how do I get yeah, how do you how do I make sure you know that I exist?

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

And it felt like there was this giant iron wall, infinite high, infinite wide, infinite below, can't dig under. Yeah, and if you can get to the other side there, yeah. Tried everything. I feel like I had a shovel, I had some dynamite. Um, it it felt like if you could get to the other side, that was the land of bounty. Yeah, there's such access and privilege from from at least from where I was at that moment in time. And I said, grass is greener, I want to be there, and everything I tried, I couldn't do it. Yeah, so I was working from time to time on my own, just getting auditions and grinding and hustling and and scraping up these small parts at these local regional theaters and stuff. Um, but Leah was the person who was like, I think you deserve more than what you have right now, yeah, and should consider grad school. Yeah. And I was like, There's no shot I get into a single grad school. As if.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Why did you think that? Because you felt like that that you were hitting so many walls, like how could it possibly how could that be different?

SPEAKER_01 19:10

I think the with the the uh catalyst for that conversation exactly was that I had gotten really far with this agent, um, who I won't name, and um the agent sat me down in a meeting and said, Look, I just with what you look like, I don't know where I could put you. Um and I was like, okay, and I carried that bruise for a really good up until when we were preparing for the Yale showcase. Yeah. I was like, I don't think I'm gonna get representation. Yeah. That's always the fear.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

I mean, that's always the fear. And it's like, yes, representation is incredibly helpful. And I know so many actors and actresses and performers who figure it out absolutely. Without representation, there is no one way. And and I think I say all this because I think we need to destigmatize this notion that like representation is the end all be all of your career, uh, because it's just not true. I agree. Um, but it is very helpful, but it it does that thing uh that you were just experiencing of like putting all of this unnecessary pressure on you to like somehow perform better than just being yourself. Yeah. Um, and because it like it's like clockwork every year, the grad students in these programs, uh which I'm sure you've seen and and like at my own, where it's just like everyone is high strung. Oh my god. And it's it's really hard. It's really hard to just like keep a level head when you're around so many people who are in that position uh because everyone's vying for representation. And it's so funny because it's like you can't guess what they want or what they're looking for, so it doesn't matter. Like you just have to go out there and be you, and like that's gonna be it, which you know easier said than that.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

I think also like a very key component is um thinking of the future, not in terms of your career as an actor, but your life as an artist. Yes, you know, yes, and and the more Well so I was just back to talk to the Yale kids about like leaving, right? And I think this is really interesting too, talking about agents and showcases and blah blah blah blah blah. So I I think struggled the most with representation again out of the Yale showcase of my class. I still got representation, we all did. Yeah, but um I got the fewest responses.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

And so it ultimately I got I only I I got like one and a half, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Same, same. I got one and a half. Yeah, I got one person who I'm with now who I door. Me too. That's the door my manager.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

I it's like the people who see you see you. Completely and like that it go on, go on. You really do. I'm happy to hear from this.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

It's just so the half was another company who I also won't name. Uh being like, Hey, are you willing to wait? We really loved your work. Yeah. Are you willing to wait a few months to see if we have space?

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

And I was like, so I'm a I'm a second choice.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah. And did that sort of did that hurt you psychologically in a did that hurt you psychologically? Is that like a psych psychological for you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yes, absolutely. Would that be with you for the rest of your life? It w it was. And I um had to sort of kill acting in my heart. Oh yeah. A little bit. Because I thought I felt, and this was self-imposed. The school did not do this. My classmates did not do this. I was so lucky to be in school with like 15 of the most generous, talented, kindest souls, um, who I think are amazing and I still love them all so dearly. Um I put this pressure solely on myself. Yeah. That if I don't get representation, I won't be an actor. And I never thought of it so coherently, but that was my underlying emotional truth. Yeah, you know. So I was like, oh God, I'll never be an actor.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

But that's a subconscious thing, like like going back to the representation thing. It is a subconscious thing that somehow gets ingrained to in into actors who are joining the industry, like, I need representation to live, or else I'm not legitimate in some way, you know, which is ridiculous. In in many ways, I know so many people who don't have representation and work way more than me.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Sam, and some of the best actors I know don't have representation right now, you know? And they're either just like, I'm but I know one guy who's just like, yeah, I I am not really into into it. I don't need it right now, I don't want to be giving my money away. Hey, and so I'm just saying no. And I feel like he's only gotten better and better in his craft, yeah, without which I think is a really interesting dynamic too. Yeah. Um yeah, all this to say that it just it takes one person, and then once you're out there, if you're if you've got that one person, or even if not, yeah, um the goal that you had in grad school cannot be the goal that you have when you leave, right? Like in grad school, you're like, Yeah, oh, I get to commit myself every day to being the best actor I can possibly be.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

To growing as an actor. Yeah. And this is my life for these three, four years. Yeah. And then you leave and you have the foundation in support while you're there, yeah, and then it vanishes. Yeah, it's like the rug is pulled out from beneath you. Yeah. And trying to keep that goal when you're out in the world without the foundation that allows you to progress in that thing is, I think, so harmful to people. Talk about a trauma, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Um, and so I was just talking to the the current Yale students about to graduate about how some of the people I saw who were like, I'm so ready to leave, I think struggled a lot in leaving. Um and it all balanced out after like the six, eight month mark. But I think that initial here I go, yeah, and then seeing the reality of the world is something else.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

And so I was like, well, if I kill acting, back to this. If I kill it in my heart, if I kill it in my heart, then the goal becomes how can I have a beautiful, fulfilling, vigorous life for myself. And that's what I did for that year, and that was like the happiest year of my life.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

I think that's so beautiful, dude. Because like that's so interesting, because like I've been struggling with that. Like this past year was like the one of the deadest years for me. Oh, yeah. And it's hard not to take that personally or to feel like my who I am is not needed in the world, like entertainment-wise or what have you, which is ridiculous because I'm a straight cisgendered white male. Like, there will always be opportunity for me. There are always is. Um, and but that being said, is like when you start when you define yourself like you define your happiness around the job, it's it's almost impossible. Even with this commercial shoot that I just did the other day, I mentioned to you, like I felt so fulfilled. And it was it was really nice to be on a set for those two days and to do the work and just have fun and meet some really great people. And I'm now out of it, and I'm like sort of riding that little high of of being off of it. And and but it's like I don't know where my point is really in this, and that it's just like something that I'm still working on. Yeah. That sort of letting go. And like, I think I'm getting better at it about like just saying fuck it and entering the room. This room, because it's where I self-tape. Um I see the hooks. There they are. Yeah. But just the notion of just like enter the room as you are. I'm trying to do be that as much as possible. Even if I'm like having a bad day, yeah, just being like, hey, John Matalone 5.8. Like, if I'm like dad, like this is just who I am today. But the thing is, I think that reads way more honest. I think so too. And just like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

There's something about I think honesty and fun are both shortcuts to like this authenticity thing that people respond to with tapes. Do you know? Totally. Totally. My first ever screen test was for a small part in what would become a big movie. Maybe I shouldn't say the name. I won't say the name. Has it come out? Yes, it's out. Um and obviously I'm not a you can guess.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Was it Dune part two? Wait, did I honestly just be? Oh my god, I but there's there's an open. You were silent in a way that made me go, did I really just hit it on the first go?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Um, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

It was something we were supposed to replace Timothy Chalabet.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Well, it was a different one.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Timmy wanted what, 15 mil. Yeah, god. And um I anyway, joking, sorry Timmy. Uh well the they wanted like a slate, and I was driving back from a weekend visiting a friend at Chautauqua with like a whole car full of friends. Sure. And this I had to do this and like send it off, and they needed a specific slate that was not one of my pre-recorded. Oh, sure. So I had done the tape for the initial, and I was like, okay, great, send that off, and I'll just attach this slate. And then I'm driving and my manager calls, and he's like, We need a different slate. You need to say this. Oh my god. And I was like, Oh my god, what do I do? We pull over and there's like a playground on the side of the highway, and there's a now there's a video of me like at the top of a children's slide, being like, Hi, Lucas Iverson, 6'2, New York, and whatever other information I needed. And then it zooms out, it pan, the person walks back, and I slide down the slide.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

And that got me to co it go into the room for that.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

That is hilarious. Isn't that insane? I love that. Yeah, maybe that's what I should do. I just drive out to a big field somewhere and like just do it from like a mile away. John Buttle. And then you start cropping. I just start cutting the wheat. I have a sigh with me. So I'd remember it's it's rememberable. Well, I think it's fun.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Memorable.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Rememberable.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

As in I did it the first time. I I think like that's the same thing about that honesty of like, oh, this guy is not here to impress or blah blah blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Also, he's like not home right now. So we can still like do this where he is. I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Hear the highway. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was it was I think there's something about just like the fun and freedom. Both of these things are freedom, right? Yeah, they are is what it is. Freedom within the form of the tape.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Totally, totally. It's so funny. You learn like as an actor, the thing you learn is just like the hardest thing you will ever have to do on stage is just be yourself. It's like this, you think it's it's it's that weird thing of like you watch these great performances, or like particularly like character performances, where like you see a transformative actor doing their thing, and it's amazing, but it's like that's like such a small pocket of the characters that you play are the ones that are like transformative. The rest of it is really like just be how you would be in that moment, and it will be the character, like people will see the character.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Play the what's what's that thing? Um Ron Van Lew talks about how uh there's like a a phase of negotiation when you begin any process, yeah. And the actor speaks to the character within themselves and tries to identify what is yours, what is mine, where do we overlap. Yeah, and when I'm borrowing from one of us, which of us am I borrowing from? Yeah. And I love that, and I think that that's so true. Because most of the time, it's that Merrill quote, right, about like the elevator, and all the characters just ride the elevator up. They're already in you. I like that. Um, I think that it you're just like, which parts of me are are you? Yeah. Yep. And really, and then you're like, what are the other parts? But those are you too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

To bring it to the surface. All you have is you to work from. So true. Yeah. Remember that, kids. This is audition horror story.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Once upon a time. Once upon a time. Um I was doing a self-tape at the end of a week of self-tapes. Oh god. It was all it was like four film and TV stuff and then one play. Sure. And I do the play kind of last minute. Uh-huh. I've been busy. I also have like two jobs that I'm working. Of course. I'm like, oh, sweat, sweat, sweat. Um, just trying to figure out what to do. I learned the sides what I thought was well enough.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Send it off.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

As the first uh pickup in the story.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah, you can see where this is going. I thought I knew them well enough. And um the next day, which I believe was like a Saturday, uh-huh. Um, my manager gets an email from the casting director, who I won't also name. Oh no. And it's like, I am writing due to my shocked response at Lucas's tape. I understand that actors have the pressures of other tapes and blah blah blah blah blah and blah blah blah blah blah, and that they are not required to memorize their lines. However, I am appalled that someone who has graduated from Yale, like Lucas had, would be so inconsiderate with the specific language that it was um a tirade like that? I mean, like I have it saved. Oh my god, dude. I'm so sorry. Well, it's okay. It be it's a good story.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

You're gonna laugh at them now, all the way to the bank. He's on a pit now.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

I feel no bad feelings to this casting director.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

No, no, he hates But it was it was like intense, and it was like this playwright writes with a scalpel, and uh, I would anticipate that an actor would understand that to the point where it's like Lucas's language was so inaccurate that I can only assume that it is laziness or uh what was the other thing? Disregard or worse, both.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Oh my god. But is that necessary?

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Well, I think I don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Like that's not if you if if you're seeing something that's like not peaking your fans, because I know you. I know you are a great actor. That's very kind of. And also, we do uh it's hard times, folks. We are a generation that has to hold several part-time jobs and do and memorize stuff like I'm sorry, it's just not the same as it used to be in terms of preparation, time of preparation. Everything is about efficiency now and convenience. I'm sorry. I'm s oh man, that makes me mad for the time.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Metalone 2028.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Oh my god, it kills me. I'm just like, sorry, but I'm so sorry that happened to you. It's not fair.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

It's not over. Oh shit. Um I think I hit all the big notes from the email. Oh my god. So what I do is I get that, I'm mortified. I he my manager reads it to me on the phone. I'm on speaker because my with my friend. Oh she's hearing this too. And I I'm about to go back to work. I call out sick, I go home, I memorize the scenes word perfect. I construct, um, I construct like a detailed list of things. You know that um that clip that like I'm not on TikTok, but that like TikTok uses all the time of Jeremy Allen White and the bear being like some a switch flipped to me, and I was like, okay, fuck you, watch this. That was that was me.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

And I'm like, let me get in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

You send them food, they're like, I don't understand. I made the food. Yeah, yeah. It's like, what no, what?

SPEAKER_00 34:29

It's like Michelin grade food.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

It's like it's excellent, but what the fuck is this now? Fuck you, watch this. So you just go hard into it.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Yeah, learn it perfect. Yeah, tape it again the next morning, do maybe one of one of the best self-tapes of my life, send it off with an apology. We send it via WeTransfer because the you know, the same. Yeah, yeah, it's it's never downloaded. They never downloaded it. It was never downloaded, and then get this though. This is where it's crazy. A month later, I'm in LA. I've booked the pit. Yeah. So I this is old news. Oh my god. Then um that person's partner, that's a two people on this team. Oh, sure. Contacts my manager and is like, hey, a veil check is Lucas free for that project. For the one that got the page. For the one that I got the horrible thing on. And then we were like, no, sorry. He's what we thought was eight episodes at the time. He's doing eight episodes of the pit, and it ended up being way more, thank goodness. Oh, nice, dude. Um my manager's like, no, sorry, he's busy. He's booked on the pit. And the person's like, oh, okay. Also, we seem to not be able to find the second round of tapes that he sent. Could you resend those for us just for our records?

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Um So they knew you were on the pit.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

So they knew I was on the pit.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

They knew they wanted to turn around and go, let's get get in while this guy's hot.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Oh, maybe that is it.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

I bet. I mean, that wouldn't shock me at all.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

It could be that. I it was just. What did you think, though? Well, it was such a mystery to me. I think that was it. It you're it's very possible. And that provides a lot of answers. The questions that we had was like Casting Director A sent that email.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Hates my guts, presumably. Forever and ever. Clearly. And casting director B, partner, knows that there's a second set of tapes, but that second set was never watched.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

So they saw it in their email and decided not to download it.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

We sent it to just casting director A, not the team. Oh, oh. So how do they know?

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Well, they probably do you think uh talked it, but maybe that he or she, I don't know, whatever. Uh they probably must have mentioned it and been like, he did send a second. And they were like, You fired. We didn't want the second tape. It's on the front.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Well, I don't know what it is, but it was so That is wild, dude. And then we get we got to get the avail check after all of that.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Oh my god, but you were like, sorry, booked and blessed. Sorry, booked booked and blessed. Yeah, sorry, Karma. It was insane. Yeah. Oh my god, dude. That's wow, you've had some experiences with people like telling you really cruelly, like what they say. That's like part of the industry. I don't know if that's unique to me though. No, it's just I mean, it's it's a thing. I oh, I've definitely had some people say things like me, my body. Oh, I maybe I don't want to be. I won't mention one part of this thing. I will mention someone else that said this. Deal. But I did like uh I've had people make comments about my hairy chest.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Wait, your hairy chest is so luscious.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Thank you. I am proud of it. Yeah. Look at it.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

As you should be.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Look at that. I'm very Italian.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Few people can do what you do there. It is a unique.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

But it's this interest, like, people will like the industry creates a perception of what you think you need to look like to be on camera or to be on stage or whatever. What is the considered attractive or like base I don't look for actors? Yeah. And the hairy chest one, I get it a lot. It's just a problem. Just people making comments about it. In one instance, someone had expressed that it was a like quote unquote problem, or would not be viewed as professional or something. Yeah, it's very weird. Fuck off. I have hair.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Especially because John does all of his scenes in every project shirtless. I do.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

I'm constantly my shirt is constantly off.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

Yeah, yeah. He's what we call a nudist artist these days. So I I guess I understand in that.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Maybe that's the route I need to go. It's like I'll really stand out all my slates. I'm buttass naked. Fuck you. Watch this. Hi, John Metalone. I'm like having a hard day. John Mendaloni 5.8. Naked uh New York City.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Uh John Mendelone 5.8. Um, yes, I'll cut my hair. No, I want more clothes.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

This hair, though. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing else. I pointed to my hair on my head for those just listening. Just listening.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

It was the head hair.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Wow. Okay, that's a pretty wild horror story, but kind of weirdly has uh like a karmic ending in. I guess. I guess.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

I don't know. I don't know if there's a greater message there. I'm inclined to say that there's not, and it's all just chaos.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Did you feel like any sense of redemption though, in that? In in he in hearing them like because you like given that message, yeah, it felt like a very definitive no. Well, it was and then all of a sudden a yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

I I'm remembering with one part that I left out, which is just that this casting director said in their email, I really don't want to have to put an asterisk next to his name this early on in his career. So it felt like a blacklisting. So to then talk about this. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

I well keep going. I'll just like the notion of blacklisting or I I agree completely.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

So to then get that turnaround, I think the thing that it felt like um it felt like validation that if I do my Jeremy Allen White switch, if I flip that thing, um I I do have some agency in this world.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Which maybe is a lie.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Oh but felt good. You know what I mean? In that moment, to be like, okay, somebody presented a problem to me. I listened graciously, I explained myself and said, This is a miscommunication. Yeah. More than anything. Yeah. I apologize. Here's my apology made manifest, so you have more than my word to go on. Yeah. In these tapes. Yeah. And that was enough to cause some sort of chain reaction. Interesting. And so that was the affirmation. The wound, the trauma, still there.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

I can see it. You're crying a little bit. But I think that is such a healthy way of looking at it. Like that, there's something about that that sounds very um It's like you, you, like you said, you took on whatever the the note that was in there under all of the I think unnecessary additives. Um and just went, I can do better. And I hope you can see that. Uh and you took the time to do it again. So yeah, maybe there was a chain reaction. I wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised to find that's true.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

I hope so. I've gone in for that partner a couple other times since then. So that's good. Well, that's good. And I'm hoping that that main person comes around eventually. There's always space in my heart for you if you hear this. I would love to work with you at some point.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

What a sweetheart. Even even And I'm still sorry. You don't need to say sorry anymore. You feel it, though. No, I know. But that's the thing. Like, it's just like we're sensitive creatures, actors, you know? Like, we really feel what you tell us. You know, like we'll take it to heart. We'll take it to heart for years. Seriously.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Seriously. Um there's so few. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

I'm sorry, I was just remembering the thing that I wanted to say from before about the blacklisting, the notion of blacklisting, which is like I think this like old Hollywood sort of notion that has like McCarthyism era. Yes, what are we doing with it now? No, it really is. But like the uh just the notion that like certain individuals who hold power, it like I'm not gonna deny, yeah, casting directors hold power, producers hold power. Absolutely. But we as actors also hold power because like the show cannot get made without us, like it can't, like all like no no part of the show can be or film or production can subsist if a department is removed. It will be wildly less quality. Agreed. And so I think too, sometimes because we're living in a world where there's just like a a desperate need, or maybe not even a need, just a desperate want for like content to constantly be putting out there. Right. There's it feels like there's no time. And I feel like that feeling is getting shorter and shorter and shorter, what people think, like how fast things need to get done. And I think that's why the the jumping into a new topic around AI. Oh my god. Like the notion of AI being like this immediate thing that can create faster, but it's like it's not better, it's not human. And also, then what's the point at the end of the day? You know? I think if it's all just for efficiency sake, right. What's the point of creating art?

SPEAKER_01 43:28

What's that what's that saying? It's like really good, really cheap, really fast. You can only have two.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Ooh. I like that. I I hear that though. And if really good, really fast, or really cheap.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

So if you want to do it good and cheap, it's gotta take its time. Yeah. If you want to do it good and fast, it's gonna be expensive. Yeah. And if you don't want good, then you can do the other signal.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

You can do it really fast and cheap.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

And that's sort of what it feels like AI is. Yeah. Yeah. I think also that that is so true. There's something representative on film and TV that I think we itch for that we get fully in the theater. Yeah. Which is um the quality of liveness. There's a magic to liveness.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Oh my god, yes. It's like um well, I was just gonna say, like uh being on this set the other day and like the time between when you perform and when you don't, it really struck me how like God, I really do love theater. It really is the actor's medium. Yeah. It's really nice to be able to just go and run the full gamut of this character's life, whatever it is over the course of just like 90 minutes or like even a lifetime, depending on what the production or the character is. There's just something so liberating and there's just a a kinetic energy to it that is so infectious and like, oh my god, give me more. I agree completely. That when you're doing film and television, it's like it really is just hurry up and wait, and like being able to turn on when it's like we're going, even at the pace that we're moving.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

It's um and I think ultimately, like um well, now we're sort of getting into like the difference between theater and film and TV.

SPEAKER_02 45:09

Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Which I learned so much about over those seven months in LA shooting the show.

SPEAKER_02 45:15

I bet.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Um, obviously I've done theater my entire life, right? Before the pit, I had done four lines as a co-star on the Gilded Age. Oh, nice. And then to jump from that to X amount of episodes on the pit, like a season of television, yeah, yeah. And joining the main cast of these people.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:35

Is insane. Yeah. It's an insane jump. And I still to this point have only seen, I'll confess to you, here, um, two episodes of the season. Because I'm so I when I when I we watch those screeners, I see myself learning the job on the job.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

And I'm so intensely like Martha Graham level, dissatisfied with my work on that show. Um really? Yes. And the response has been really good, and I'm lucky for that because I didn't know what I was doing, and I don't know if I still do. But the the difference is so interesting. It's like, um, here's what I learned. Here's a good story. Please. So day one, I am playing this new med student, right? My guy is a gunner. I I find out about this all while I'm getting my costume fitting. Uh-huh. Like it's it felt like I auditioned for a different version of the character than I found out I would be playing. Oh, interesting. And that ended up becoming true because they ended up rewriting the end of the character, but we can talk about that too, too.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

So having to l like learn who the character is now. Through word of mouth. Yeah, as it's being developed like on set, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

This is the other thing. Okay, so there's so many things to talk about. Please, I love it. I love it. One big principle is with TV, you get one episode at a time.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

So you don't see what your character's doing in episode 15.

SPEAKER_02 46:55

So you don't know what the arc means.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

You don't know the arc. And you know that there's this actors love, love, love, love, love an arc. To have an arc and give themselves the if they know where they land, they can give themselves the furthest possible distance to fall.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

For Noah?

SPEAKER_01 47:10

I think so, because uh they weren't done writing this season, and I they ended up That's even more impressive. They ended up making some substantial changes part way through. Yeah. I hope I'm allowed to say that. I think I am. Uh yes, so I think even Noah doesn't fully know the I think he has some ideas. He's a writer on the show, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

Um, he's a writer on the show as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Yes, so in season talented. He is insane. Insane. And as a director, he's amazing. He's directing as well. He directs, he writes, he acts. I clearly did not do enough research.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

I'm like, Noah, I know his name is Noah.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah, that's true. And I love that man. Yeah. Um I bet. I have such strong affection for him. Um, yes, so you don't get your arc. Yeah. So you you can't plant things, right? You can't set little seeds or do little actions that then pay off later. Yeah. Hardly. Um, additionally, so the first day that I was going to be shooting, uh-huh. One thing about the Pip is we're all on that sound stage, unless you're doing exteriors, in which case we fly you out to Pittsburgh and we shoot. And you do it on Pittsburgh, oh wow, we do it in Pittsburgh, which was awesome. Awesome. All in one week. I'd love to hear that. I did all three days. It was such a great experience. That's so cool. And uh otherwise, you're just there. And it's this very realistic set. Nina, our set designer, amazing, skillful. Doctors come in and they're like, we could treat people here, you know. I keep lip brushing them.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Like you keep licking it. Give it a little kiss.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

And um, you're constantly visible on the set of the pit when some other scene is shooting. Yeah. Right. So if you're doing XYZ over here and that's what we shoot today, but we're gonna be getting to you tomorrow and you're in the background, well then you have to be there both days in the background. There's a lot of background work.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Yeah, absolutely. You can basically see the whole floor, like any given shot.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

It's so transparent, which I think in season two, I I saw still of episode six, which is a nurse's episode. Yeah. And where they cut from one nurse treating on somebody to a nurse like walking somebody down a hallway to another nurse treating somebody in the room behind, and they're all like looking at each other through the glass. Really beautiful, powerful visual storytelling. Yeah. Our DP Jojo, she's incredible. Um, anyways, so I was told I was gonna be doing background on day one, and that my real scene wouldn't start till Monday. We started shooting Friday, June 13th. We have the weekends off, so I was like, great, I don't have to shoot my scene until Monday. So we're doing a wonder um to start the season where Robbie and Shan are like walking back into the pit. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And uh, I'm like, okay, this is gonna take all day. John Wells is an amazing director, he's being so specific and he loves his takes. Thank God. Um so they're like going through it, and I'm like sort of watching, learning. I've had one day on a professional set before this, yeah, and then it's lunch, and I'm like, wow, that was so interesting. You see, I've had to do CPR in the background for a little bit. And then um we cut to cut to lunch, and we get a text like, hey, we're moving fast, your scene's happening in an hour.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Oh my god. So you have to do you know the scene at all? Yes, I'm I'm freaked, so I memorized the whole episode. Yeah, of course. So we wow, okay, so the pressure's on.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Pressure's way on. We go to uh and I'm also like meeting these people who I've seen on TV. Yeah, you know what I mean? Such a weird thing, and now we're gonna be working together.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

That probably feels very surreal too. Just like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

And you there's no real time to get over it. You just have to sort of say yes and go.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Which is what we did.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

So we like went to Shabana's dressing room, I believe. And it was her, Garen, and I. And then Irene is also in the scene, but we couldn't get her, or she was somewhere else, or something. So it's the three of us reading in for Irene's lines too, and we're just like going through doing what we think the blocking's gonna be, yeah, going over the lines over and over again. I'm screaming into a pillow at one point. I'm like, this is gonna fucking so I feel so crazy. Then we go and we start shooting, and it is crazy. Now back to the main topic at hand, which is the difference between theater and acting. Ah, yes, yes, yes. So I'm Yale's model is like I do something to make you feel something.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

And you are the thing that matters, not what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

You're always trying to change the other person. Yeah, yes, affect the target. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Yep. And uh so I'm sending my energy to this other person, Garen in this case, and I want to make him feel I think Ogilvy wants to make Whitaker feel like I'm grinding his bones into dust for saying the wrong thing right now.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Which I think is a very right for that character, from what I understand of that character. And I was like, let me just try this. Yeah. So we start the scene, we're going through it. It's we're trying to save this person, it's high stakes. Um, he says something, and I correct him.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

And I shoot my energy to him, and it wasn't vocally too loud, but yeah. It wasn't energetically too loud, or it wasn't visually too loud, but energetically. I could feel it like a like a hot knife through butter.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

And I was like, But that's not what we do. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 52:11

Like as a theater performer, so you were feeling like it was too much energy.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

And just in you know that like sort of it's not quite tactile, but that visceral energetic exchange between actors with the camera right there. I was like, oh, that the volume is too loud, and not in any tangible way, just in what I was doing, yeah. It was not the room and it was not the scene. So then I'm like stranded. There goes my technique. Yeah. And I'm like trying to send my energy, but dilute it by like looking at the monitor. So now the arrow is not going boom, it's going like trying all this stuff. I f I get home after shooting that scene. I call my Yale teachers and I'm like, hey, Gregory, I think that I fucked that up. And he was like, Yeah, you know, you you can't send your energy in the way you can in theater. Yeah. Here's why. Ron Van Lou. Acting is not what you do or what I do, it's a thing that happens between us. And that beautiful liveness feeling, the audience gets to experience that same thing between you. Yeah. On camera, they're using a shot of me and a shot of you, and it's like, take two and take six over here. Yeah. So it's this Frankenstein connection. Yeah. The story is told solely through the image of the connection. The audience, unless it's a tour, doesn't actually get to experience that liveness between you at all. Yeah. They don't see the ball being thrown, they see the picture of the ball being thrown.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

That's what Bob Krakower says in Israel. We tell stories through pictures in film and television. I just didn't realize how true that is. It's it's it's hard to sort of like turn it's not even like turning off the training or anything. Like it's all there, but it just it exists in a way that's like because I had to do this on that commercial suit recently too. Just like, oh yeah, I gotta kind of bring down the like I was like projecting. And I was just like, oh dude, dude, like cool down, breathe. Easy. It's re it yeah, it's it's it is easier than you think. It will be. And I put that in quotes. Yes, require that is a better way of saying it. It requires more ease.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Or I I think it um it reads ease better. Yeah. The camera. Ease reads better than effort.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Yes. So then if what you're feeling feels real. Yes. Which which is the real mind fuck sometimes of uh of of acting on camera is just like not trying to to oversell it or something.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

I remember I went to um ADR one day.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

And we do it periodically while we're shooting, you know. Uh it's all there on the Warner Brothers lot, so it's not a far trip. You you come into work early or you stay late, or you come in on a day that you have off. Yeah. And um I went and I had to do this one line for the scene where I give somebody bad news in a very kind of cro crass way. Um, which recently went out and the whole internet got so mad at me. Oh no, what? Oh, my character. Oh, okay, good. But here's here's what I saw. Oh, good, good, good. Good, good, good. And those are different people. That's a different part of you. Yeah. Well, the negotiation stage is still on going. Um so so what I saw was this, right? I was with Garen in this scene. Garen has been acting since he was like a teenager on camera. He was like young Dracula in BBC. He's storied, experienced, an amazing, amazing actor. I love that guy. I look up to him tremendously. And um remind me who does he play? He plays Whitaker.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

I love him. He's so good. Okay, I thought that was Whitaker. He's so good on the show. I really he's one of my favorites on the show. He's so good.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

He got he gets an upgrade in season two, so I think you'll you'll enjoy. Um, we're doing this scene. I I see the footage of me, and what I see, this is camera, yeah, or your camera. Let's do your camera. Okay. No, for them. Let's do this camera. Yeah, yeah. Do it. This is camera, and I'm looking like this to see the rest of the hospital and see what's ready for me, what's next. But the picture that you're getting, you're getting this. Yeah. So Garen is now um camera. Yep. And I'm over there. And Garen is like getting the bad news, and he's like, This, what? And what the camera gets is like way more availability than that. So in theater school, I'm like, I see this thing, I do it all the way. And now there's this added component of um the audience being not something that can be they can't be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

They're not feeling on the fourth wall. No. They're every wall, they're at every angle, depending on where they choose to put the camera. The camera is. So it's like, yeah, it's that mind fuck of like having to look over here when in actuality, if you're playing within the space, the person is like over there, you it like further over. Yeah, it's like we're cheating it. It will look like you're looking over there, but you're ha you have to look here for it to make sense visually.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

And if you're lucky enough to have like a great actor, that person will go to your site. Exactly. Which we are we are fortunate enough to have on the back. Yeah, yeah. Everybody's so generous. But it's that thing of like, okay, so this is my new understanding of technique, and it's about generosity and inclusion and access to me. What gives that thing and all the people watching who I want to be moved by this story the best possible access to me? Yeah. And how do I have that sense of truth that I hone in grad school? Which makes me want to do this. Yeah. Yeah. Right? But I think eventually, like what I see in Noah, right, is the ability to have both. Yes. And I think I think eventually you do come back around to where, like, there was this one time so incredibly expressive without doing much.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

Anything. It's it's so it's really, really incredible to watch what he's doing.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

And he's an artist's artist. Yeah. Like we had so many great conversations. Uh I don't even know where to begin. One of my favorite things about him is I sometimes on set. I hope this isn't outing him. Um I'll text him and ask him if this is okay to say. Even if it's not, we can cut it. But um, one of the things that he does on set is I see him go like this. Oh, yeah. Sometimes before a take. Yeah. And eventually I was like, hey, what is that? Yeah, what is that? And he was like, Oh, I worked with an actor, and I'm blanking on the name of the actor who he worked with. But that actor told he saw that actor doing that, somebody he really respected. That person told the story about how when Michelangelo was painting this the roof of the Sistine Chapel. Yeah, yeah. Every day he would like offer up his hands to God and say, Lord, rid me of myself so that I may please thee. Wow. Which is now like Noah's go-to thing before a take sometimes. When he when he feels that he himself is getting in the way, yeah. His desire, his ego, etc., he asks to be rid of it.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

So that he may better serve the story. And if that's not a theater actor, through and through, yeah, but his skill set is so masterful. There was this one time we were doing this scene in a trauma pay, and um there we could hear in video village that they're like talking about the Sean's not quite working, not quite working. Noah's like about to start working on something. He looks at the camera, he says, Amy, are you on a 50? And Amy goes, Yeah, camera up. And Noah goes. And then the whole room, Video Village, goes, Oh, perfect!

SPEAKER_02 59:24

Oh my god. But then that's a pro. That's a fucking pro right there. He knows exactly what the frame looks like. He knows the picture without even seeing it.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Nope.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 59:34

That's 390 episodes of ER for you.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

I mean, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

It's but that's but that's the other thing. That's the thing that I want to start really learning more about is the is the technique of camera. Same. Because like the lens, the the simple change of a lens has total different ramifications for the scene. Oh my god. What it looks like, how you're positioned within the frame. It's really it's uh such an incredible.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

And an actor's responsibility to truth changes depending on the lens, depending on the distance, depending on the shot. And eventually, I think the real pros, which I do not consider myself part of yet, um, know he's a pro. I watch this show and I go, ooh, didn't feel that frame.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

But watching yourself on camera is always hard. It's always difficult. Really hard. You know, I was gonna say uh uh when you said the uh what Noah does for with his hands and and God, uh it reminded me of something Dr. Brian Rose, which was uh during a rehearsal one day, he just pulled out one, you know, he he was always pulling out quips and like great one-liners. Uh someone uh was asking, like, should I can I start the scene now? And Dr. Brian Rose goes, Go when the God inside you moves. And I was like, whoa. Yeah, but that stuck with me. I was like, that's a beautiful sentiment.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:56

He kind of drips profundity.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Oh my god, yes, he does. Yeah. I hope he's well wherever he is. I'm sure I hope he is too. Miss him. Lucas. John. I think this is the end of the episode, which is crazy to me, but dude, oh god, we need to hang out more. We definitely missed it. So good to see you again.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

So good to see you, buddy. I've missed you.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:16

Yeah, I've missed you too, man. Why are we missing each other? We live in the same city, we live pretty close to each other. It's 25 minutes to get here, so it's really not bad. Honestly, dude, so good to see you. Such a treat. Thank you for having me. Else you want to like uh plug beyond the pit or anything else you're you're working on?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

If anybody's in DC, you can come see Othello in May. Me and Wendell Pierce. Dude, really, good for you, man. And a couple other great people from Yale and some other awesome actors at STC. Um, some other episodes of some other shows I'm about to shoot, but you'll see I don't know when that's coming out. So I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

Hey, that's totally fine. When is uh when is Othello?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Did you say Um We will begin playing in May, mid-May? It's at the Shakespeare Theater Company.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

Oh, perfect. That's great. That's perfect. That should come out uh right around that time.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Anything else to plug? Um, John Matalone is an incredible actor who I have looked up to because of his talent and his heart and his kindness for a really long time. Luke is. So I'd love to plug this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

Dude, that really that you're gonna get me choked up. That really means a lot to me, man. It's all true. Love you, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:19

Love you, man. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

Of course. All right, y'all. That's this week. I'm gonna cry. That's this week's episode of the Working Class Acts podcast. We'll catch you next week.