Working Class Acts
Candid conversations with working class actors navigating the entertainment industry.
Working Class Acts
Christopher Bannow
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On this week's episode I sit down with the incredibly talented, Christopher Bannow. We discuss everything from our harrowing (but ultimately worthwhile) Williamstown experiences to philosophies on rejection.
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So I start my episodes off with like a little thermal theater game just for fun. Okay. Um so you can choose from a couple of things, and then maybe you can also help me uh establish something or or or figure out something that my uh my partner Alexander and I were debating this morning. Okay, which is Tree or Stalin. Did you ever play that at Williamstown? What is that? Oh, okay, maybe not okay. It's it's a g I'm terrible at it. But it's uh it's a game where one person thinks of something, a person place or thing, uh-huh, and then uh the other person has to guess what that is, but they have to guess it via like the comparison between two things. So you start with, is it closer to a tree or Stalin?
unknownUh-huh.
SPEAKER_00And then you choose from there, and then from there you go, okay, let's say it's a tree. Uh you go, okay, is it a tree or a bush? Bush, bush or a rock. Oh, it's a rock. And then that's how you play. It is, it can be really easy or it can be infuriatingly hard.
SPEAKER_01Wow. And it can it could be like a person, place, or thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it can be any, it can even be like it can be literally anything.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Okay.
SPEAKER_00We don't have to do that. Oh, wait, wait. But you said there was a debate.
SPEAKER_01Is is there a debate?
SPEAKER_00Oh, we oh, the debate was whether or not we learned it at Williamstown. Because I remember learning it at Williamstown, and she also remembers learning it at Williamstown, but she said that she thought she had taught it to me because she said she had seen it in a play at Williamstown. It this is so in the weeds. I didn't know Alexander went to Williamstown. Yeah, I did 2017, yeah. Oh, okay. Um but uh yeah, I was like, no, I think it I think it's just a game that they play there. Well, you're teaching me this game right now. So I guess no. No.
SPEAKER_01I mean, but maybe, you know, a lot of things happen at Williamstown that not everyone's privy to.
SPEAKER_00Or remembers. So it's possible. Fair enough, fair enough. Okay, do you want to be the person thinking of something or or guessing? I would rather guess.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I think if I have I think if I have to do this, I should I should sacrifice myself. Fair enough. All right. I got something. Okay, so I say I say tree or Stalin? Correct, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh tree.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then I have to say tree and then something new.
SPEAKER_00And then something new, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01What's further from Stalin? Tree or or dictator. Tree. Tree. Tree or uh two-legged thing. Tree. Wow. Tree or oatmeal. Tree. Tree or flower. Ooh.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna say the the re I'm thinking so much, I am like, should I go metaphorical here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I can I can see that in the room. I'm gonna say flower. Why not?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. Flower or object. Object. Okay, sorry, the the the poetry died. Um did it. Or did it. Object. This is gonna be the whole podcast.
SPEAKER_00Trust me, I've cut down every single trio stalin I've ever played. It's object or feeling. It certainly elicits feeling for me. I'll say object still, though.
SPEAKER_01Maybe maybe this there's a way to do this that I don't understand. But I'm I'm okay. You're saying object. Um okay, because I'm I'm no closer than I was with Stalin and Sree. Um object or uh place. Place. Whoa. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Place the the that should be helpful. Okay. Yeah, there's there's very few places in the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's only like four or five. We've got we've gotten there. Um place or uh place or uh uh address. Place. Uh how do I guess it? It's quite difficult.
SPEAKER_00This game is tough.
SPEAKER_01Or like when I think I know what it is, do I like do I do I stop?
SPEAKER_00I mean you'll say I'll tell you if you got it. Because it it's like it's trying to get you're trying to like weed it down to a thing. So now you have place. I'll tell you, it is a place that I'm thinking of. It is a place. Now it's just a matter of finding out what the place is.
SPEAKER_01It's not Williamstown.
SPEAKER_00It is Williamstown. Oh, it is. Well, there you go. Okay. Well that's what I'd make it a little easy.
SPEAKER_01You know what's easy. We talk about something for five minutes, and then you're like, let me just choose the thing we were just talking about to make it really easy for Chris.
SPEAKER_00Well, honestly, I played one here that was like 20 minutes long because it was someone chose someone, uh, a basketball player, and I was like, I I so know so little about sports. Yeah. And I felt so terrible. So you did better than I did that day. I guess. Were they trying to be mean? No, they thought it was easy. They thought it would be easy. And at the end of the day, it sort of was. It was LeBron James that they were thinking of. So it wasn't like totally out of left field. I was just so lost in the weeds. Yeah. Um it's okay. We're all lost. Yeah. We're all lost, John.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the working class ads. Thanks for having me, John.
SPEAKER_01My name's Chris Banno, and I and I um and I do theater and I do different things in theater, and I've sometimes been hired to to do it. Um and I live in New York City, and I have met people in other places, like Williamstown, um, where we met, and uh I went to school at places, um, I went to um Boston University, um, and I went to Lambda, the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Arts. Uh, and before that I went to ECA, the Educational Uh Center for Arts in in New Haven, Connecticut. And then uh I also went to Yale University for my master's in in acting at also in New Haven, um, Connecticut. I'm also from ish New Haven. That's why I went to high school. Oh, there you go. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's Christopher Bannow, everybody. He's right here. Wow. Um, wow, wait, okay. So you went to a lot of different schools.
SPEAKER_01I guess so.
SPEAKER_00You said B U and the and Lambda and then Yale.
SPEAKER_01Well well, Lambda, it was like a semester abroad. Oh, oh, I see, I see. It was like a junior year you could choose before they like I I don't know if this is common, but they they kind of force you to go abroad. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Your junior year their second semester, they force all the acting majors have to go to Lambda. I I I wasn't you must leave the country. Kind of, yeah. Like you have to study here. I wasn't an acting major, I was a theater arts major, which basically was like a it was more of like a you know, you you take directing and playwriting and uh stage management and kind of design classes, and you also take some gen ed classes and you you can kind of create your own as opposed to like a conservatory. Yeah. But so through theater arts, you could choose to go there or like to the comedia. There's there's this comedia in in I think it's Abruzzo, Italy, which a couple of people it's like a pretty well-known program, but there was that, there was like this with um Jim Um oh my god.
SPEAKER_00Jim. Jim Jim. I don't know. Jim Calder. Jesus. Jim Calder. Well, he does he does, right? Yeah, at NYU, and he does a comedia thing over I think it's over the summer though. This and you said this was a second semester thing.
SPEAKER_01This was, but I think it's a it's it has like a life, I think it has a year, a year-round life. So maybe Jim is a part of it, potentially. But anyway, there were lots of options, and I ultimately kind of chose to go with the actors to to Lambda because I wanted I wanted that and I wanted to be in London because I love I love London so much. Yeah. It's I just want to get back there, and I've I've tried, and I actually I've almost succeeded a couple times. Um, but I I um I love it so much. So anyway, I I went to Lambda my junior year, and then yeah, that was all that. And then I was in New York for like a year. Um, and then I met you at Williamstown, and then immediately after Williamstown, like it was like Williamstown ended, and I went to orientation for Yale, you know, to start to start that program.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so you hadn't you hadn't hadn't started uh when you were in at Williamstown. You were about to start.
SPEAKER_01I was about to start. Oh wow, okay. I was I was newly, newly minted as a as a Yalee.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I only say that because honestly, dude, you uh your work at Williamstown, whenever I saw you perform, you were one of my favorite people to watch, honestly. It was uh I was like, this guy's really fucking good. So to hear that you were that good even before Yale, I was like, damn, this guy's thanks, John.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dude. I mean, you know, well, I don't know. I don't know what any good, I don't know what makes what makes anyone good anymore. I don't do I totally feel that. But but the thing about Williamstown, which is funny is I auditioned the year before for the non egg program. And you know, it was like uh, hi, I'm Chris, here's my stuff. They were like, Thank you. Never heard from them. Yeah. And then the next year I go in, I do the exact same pieces, I think, I think out of spite, because I was like, I want to see something. And then in my thing, I I was like, Hi everyone, how's it going? Yeah, I just got into Yale and I did the same pieces, and I swear it was like the the it was like the sun had risen and like I was dewy, and all of a sudden it was like, oh, oh wow, you know, and I you felt like they were paying more attention simply because you had mentioned that billion that sense that says so much, which is why I said thing about like what's good because I I just I I feel like so much, especially vintage Williamstown. It was like all about the shine. Yeah, it was all about like the shiny object uh part of being an actor. And so I felt I am I gossiping?
SPEAKER_00No, dude, trust me. I've had a couple other people on Williamstown. We've gossiped. Okay, it's totally fine. Okay, I'll tell my stories about Williamstown because I had a very difficult time there.
SPEAKER_01Oh, really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, just like per person, uh interpersonally, uh or not, I guess not interpersonally, like the people that I met were lovely. It was more the culture of just like, I mean, it's in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. Um, I wasn't drinking at the time um or doing anything like that. And like it's at the end of the day, like people would party and like go and drink at bars and stuff like that. And I was just like, uh, I just felt kind of outside of the the the culture or something for a little while. Um and also I was exhausted, like as an apprentice. Oh Jesus.
SPEAKER_01I was just talking to not to name drop, but you know the playwright Beth Henley? Yeah. Um we we've like developed a friendship. I've wondered a couple things with her, and she has this play now at the Vineyard. Bughouse, it's called. I haven't seen it yet.
SPEAKER_00No, uh Alexandra and I just saw just saw it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my god, it was so cool. The the set and the artistry of it all was really, really cool. Yeah. Um, but yeah, Bethany.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, I was just talking to her. I don't know why we were talking. Oh, because we we were talking about she's written a couple plays and I've done readings of them, and she was like, Where do you think you know this could happen or whatever? And she brought up Williamstown, and I was like, Beth, it's not, it isn't, it doesn't exist anymore. And she was like, Yeah, what happened? And I kind of said the whole thing, you know, I was like, you know, the whole like the whole uh unpaid labor part of it. Yeah. Actually, no, the paying to be labored. Paying to be unpaid labor. Yeah. Uh is kind of is kind of what what stunk it. Yeah. She was like, What? It's like, yeah, that's the only way that place ever existed is because you had, I mean, how many apprentices? It was like six. There was a lot. 50-ish? Yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_00Every summer that would pay to and you know, like you you paid, I mean, I guess I guess summer camps charge money, but you know, it you're like it's it's also like, well, a school also charges you money and you're learning, and like you don't necessarily make money from like the shows you do there. Yeah. But it's like it we would do like it was non-stop while you were there. And like you would have to do overnight strikes and stuff like that, and it was just like, well, this is is this what I signed up for? I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Um also like you like paid to like I mean, I mean part of it, like let's be honest, part of that place, people would go there because they knew they could like they could pick young people up. Uh uh yeah. I mean, uh like surely I mean I don't know that for a like a fact. I don't have like the the like the the hard evidence, but yeah, I mean people would come because they knew that they there was a a lot of young people who wanted to spend time with the more famous people, and then the famous people I mean I we won't we won't say names on this podcast, but I know I don't know if it was your summer or the nope, it was your summer. I know I'm I know what happened with people and places and things.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god. Wait, we'll talk about that off off air, maybe more. Or I don't know. Yeah. Um yeah. No, but I I totally I totally feel you. And like like I was just saying, like the because the play it's so isolated, it's just like there's nothing else to do. I I don't know. Like it's it's it was such a weird, it was such a weird atmosphere.
SPEAKER_01And saying that, it also gave me so many uh things in my career that I wouldn't have otherwise.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Oh, and but this was the thing, then this is the thing too. Like um uh the the apprenticeship in particular was like such a bizarre experience because it's like you're they kind of sell you on this notion of like you come here, you get to like you'll learn all like all the different aspects of theater. And I suppose that's true. But also like you still had to audition for things, and like if you didn't get into things, you could go the whole summer without performing. You could. Um, I was very fortunate to be in the cabaret in one of the ten uh 10 minute plays. Um but I know some people who didn't who who didn't get the any of those opportunities, maybe a 10-minute, but like it nothing was guaranteed. Yeah. Uh and that always that's sort of like that's so bums me out. And that's something that like even in educational institutions, like uh, you know, my undergrad where I I I learned quite a bit, but they didn't have um this uh I always think there needs to be a a certain level of a quota at an educational institution so everyone's getting the same amount to work with. Because I know some people in my undergrad who went through and only got to do one show in the four years that they were there. And I'm just like, I don't and and the excuse that always comes up is well, it's preparing you for the real world. In the real world, you might get rejected. I'm like, let the real world do that on its own. It'll do that on its own. Like give people at least a chance coming out of here because like if they don't have like stuff on the resume or like any experience, then you're not giving them any chance to thrive.
SPEAKER_01Um what part of what part of rejecting someone helps them become a better actor?
SPEAKER_00That's what I that that's the thing too. I'm like, I'm like, maybe that look, we all have to deal we all have to deal with rejection in our lives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's a human thing we all go through. So yes, I totally agree. I don't think it helps at all. Like, if you're in an educational institution, you should be given as many opportunities as possible to figure out if it's for you and like to build your skill.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um otherwise it's just a scam. Well, so John, but we've both been through higher education. We both we both spent a lot of time learning how to act. And so let me let me pose this question to you on your own podcast. Oh, I love this. Do you think do you think it do you think it added up?
SPEAKER_00Do you think that the Um It's it's See the thing is I feel very fortunate and that I was I I didn't fall through those cracks as much as I know some other people did. Um w for whatever reason. Um but i i I mean, I've had I've had several years where I've not been working and it just sucks. It just sucks to be away from this thing that you love and fulfills you and is such an essential good for our country, especially now when the divisions are so so apparent. Um And so I I don't know. I I think it's it's I think the bigger question is like why is there so little access? Why why does why do the arts every year, like in so many different ways, get less and less funding and becomes less and less important? Um I've always said this. I don't know where I heard this, and it's it's gonna be a real downer, people, but I think America loves art. Okay. It hates artists. Let that sink in everybody.
SPEAKER_01I'm trying to think of like the equivalent to that of like America loves baked goods, but they hate bakers. I don't know why that's the first thing that can be a good thing.
SPEAKER_00No, but it's good, but it's a good comparison. You have to compare it to other industries, or else what's the point? Um but it's like, and that's such a downer. I try not to think about that every day of my life. Uh-huh. But it's I do think there is some. I mean, just looking at this current administration, like there's nothing, it does not support free speech of any kind. And just I mean, the National Endowment of the Arts like no longer exists. Yeah. Um Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, back to you, Chris. Oh no, I mean, we're both sitting here. No, I love it. I do appreciate you asking me that question, though. It's it's uh it's rare that I get m interviewed on my own podcast, which is great. Happy to help. Um, but anyway, let's bring it back to the beginning. Okay, Christopher. You so you grew up in Connecticut, you said? Yeah? Yeah. New Haven-ish. New Haven-ish.
SPEAKER_01I grew up all over kind of the Metro North line. So I was born in Bridgeport, and then I lived in Westport for a tad, then Stratford, then Milford, then New Haven, adjacent or New Haven. Sure. So you so yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Popped around a little. So where did you get the proverbial bug? When were you bit?
SPEAKER_01Well, early, yeah, like super early. So uh the reason we lived around there is my mom and my dad both worked in theater. Oh, great. My mom was an actor, and my dad or i is still, but was an actor, my dad is a drummer. Oh, cool. And there was this theater called the Downtown Cabaret Theater in Bridgeport, Connecticut, which is kind of like a weird old I don't think it's still around, but it's it obviously it's gone through many iterations since. But like I think it's where the American premiere of Blood Brothers happened. Okay, which was a musical that I think it's British. Um, and they had like a bunch of I don't know, they had like some I think it was like a place where like New York actors would go and there'd be like a bus that would take you from the city to Bridgeport, you'd do the show and you'd catch the bus back. And I think it was like a it was a like a thing in like the 80s and 90s, and so my parents worked there, and so there's this video. My mom, they also they did a lot of children's theater. Um and my mom was always a part of them. Um, and she would often like sub in for shows so she would get like the script and she get a recording of the of the tape. And there's this video of me watching the tape on the TV that she had obviously learned and watched a bunch of times, and I had seen it so many times that I had memorized all the lines of the prince in this thing, and I it was me like looking at the tape, and like when he would enter, I would like kind of walk a little more to the right, and then I would say the words watching him, and then he would leave and I would kind of exit off the off the quote unquote stage. So I like grew up seeing my mom act, and basically I grew up backstage at this at this one theater, like it wasn't like general theater, it was like a theater was my you know, like kind of like a home for my family. So I I started taking camp when I was about seven because my mom also taught at a at a theater called Music Theater of Connecticut, which was in Westport. They have some cool alums. I mean, you know, Justin Paul from Pesic and Paul, like who David Hansen. Of course. I like grew up doing shows with him. Oh, very cool. Um, some like filmmakers, some writers, yeah, like a bunch of people that I grew up with all are still in theater. Um that's awesome. But so I started taking classes in camps there, and it just kind of stuck. Like I I just there'd be points in my life where it'd be like I'd have to choose between sports camp and theater camp. Sure. I chose theater camp. And then when I got older, it was like between being in a band and doing shows, and I ultimately chose doing shows. And then I went to this performing arts high school uh in New Haven. It was like a normal school from seven to twelve thirty, and then I'd take a bus and go to the arts school from like one to four. Nice. And so I did that, and so yeah, I just kept I always kept choosing theater, which is crazy because now I'm old and I'm just like, this is all I've ever done. That's fantastic though. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, maybe, yeah. I was always very aware how unglamorous it was. Like my parents were, you know, they weren't they weren't like they weren't like making a ton of money. Um they always they and they had other jobs. Like my mom taught aerobics, my dad worked in construction and sold insurance, and they had many other jobs. And so I was I was very like I was very humble being like, I'm not gonna like this is this is the life. Yeah, the life that that one can live doing this. But I I just kind of I just loved it. And I should say it too. I was very shy as a kid. Um You were very shy as a kid, you say? Very, very shy. And so I wouldn't really talk. Talk a lot, but on stage I I I felt I felt okay to talk. I felt okay to kind of let loose. And so maybe part of it was also like, you know, I need this or this gives me something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Do you feel like if you hadn't, if your your family hadn't been in the arts and the theater as much, do you feel like you would have you would have gravitated to the theater as quickly as you did? Never. I don't I don't I really don't yeah.
SPEAKER_01I really don't think so because I I was so shy. I don't think I would have known that that outlet exists did. I like I I love I love math. I love numbers, I love like boring things. I like like nothing is more satisfying than like getting like a page of equations and like spending time to finish the equation and then like hand in your assignment or whatever. I think that's so exciting. My teacher in high school thought I was gonna go into like math. Yeah. And then one day, like they like met my parents for like a conference, and I think they found out that I wasn't gonna do that, and they were really like, Oh, I are you sure? Um so yeah, I don't think I would have I don't necessarily know that I would have found it if my if my mom and dad hadn't been so kind of entrenched in it. Yeah, yeah. Um which is which is maybe I can blame them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. But always blame your parents. Always blame your parents. Yeah. It always works.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so you you grew up doing th theater, you went to a performing arts high school. Yeah, yeah. What what is that like? I I because I grew up in a public school system and like our our theater program actually at my public school is was pretty decent, was pretty good. Um, but it what is the difference? Are you taking theater classes throughout the day and stuff like that, and then also some gen eds on the side or what have you?
SPEAKER_01And yeah, I mean the theater, the the the arts high school was just it was like just arts. It was amazing. Oh wow I honestly I don't know that I would have gotten through high school without it. No, I mean I I would take that stuff at my from my normal school. I don't know math. Like I I would cram all the classes in kind of in the first part of the day so that they were and then we left early to do the the art stuff. So it like added some of our necessary elective requirements, you know, for our school so we could graduate. But but no, it was just art. I I I loved it so much, and I honestly felt even at the time, I was like, this is amazing that I get to do this stuff. And you know, probably in a horrible way, it made me feel like I knew so much when I went to college because I was like, I've been taking you know, like I mean, we we we took like Michael Chekhov classes in high school. I took like mask work. I that's fantastic. We got to we took like theater for social change and we would do improv and we would do voice and LeBan and like we did all this stuff as 15, 16 year olds. And you know, we don't know anything about ourselves or our bodies or like my I remember my monologue for it was like a Charlie Brown monologue where he has the bag over his head in in lunch. Like you know, I'm I'm like an eighth grade auditioning, and somehow I think that that's like and then I'm just like I know so much now because I went to the school, I will cause social change. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, but but we felt that way, and yeah, honestly, absolutely the fact that that school could help us feel like we had some autonomy and some agency in like in affecting the world through art, I think was probably the biggest gift it could have given us, you know. Um, that I really felt like I was an artist when I was 16, 17, and like I was uh amongst it, which I think is sometimes the hardest thing. Uh and you know, I constantly have to re-find it, but you know, the the confidence of like I I am a storyteller, I know how to do this and I and I believe in this. I think that I've lost that so many times in my life and had to re find it in different moments, and it doesn't matter how much you've done or how much training you have or you know what what accolades you've gotten, you you still I think that you you come against that um as an artist. You're just like I yeah, do I have do I know what I'm doing? And like am I do I believe in myself any anymore? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I do I feel that so hard. I've been going through that like uh like every other day. Like to today I I have a call back for something that I really want to get. Um, but that's been running through my head. This like, am I worthy of this place that I'm like going in for? Yeah. Um and then it's like, yeah, of course I am. It's a weird mental gymnastics. It's like one day it's strong, one day it's not, and both are okay, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Can I share this one little thing? Just please. If this helps you at all, please I recently heard this and I was like, I like that. Uh also you mentioned basketball at the beginning of this. I don't know if that'll make the cut. But this basketball player um who played one game in the NBA, he he wrote this little thing where he was like, you know, that one game I played it really safe because it was like my first time doing it. And in hindsight, I wish I had like gone for 50 points. I wish I had done everything because he played that one game safe and then he was cut from the team. Basically, he was like, you know, even if I had missed every single shot I took, the same end result would have been, I would have been cut. Yeah. So and he said the mindset was he was approaching it like, will I will I fail? And he has since then went into finance, and because it was something that he hadn't trained for his whole life and didn't feel the pressure for, yeah, he simply was like, for finance, he he said like he approached every day, like, oh, will I succeed? Yeah. And that simple thing of just, you know, going into a thing, being like, Oh, will I actually succeed today? Yeah. And that hopeful optimism peeking through as opposed to the holding onness of like, am I gonna put one thing in the wrong place and fail or am I gonna anyway?
SPEAKER_00No, I think that's lovely. It's so interesting. Like, that is so true. I feel like it's it, I wonder where human beings get this, like if this is inherently human or if it's something we have like injected into our ourselves in a toxic manner, the the notion of that question, will I fail versus the will I succeed? Like, is that inherent or is that something we've taught ourselves in uh uh as like a bad habit? Yeah. Um so performing arts high school, you go on to wait, so you you go on to where'd you go? Boston University. Boston University, yes, Boston University. Went through Lambda, yeah, and then you told everyone you went to Yale, you went to Williamstown, then you went to Yale. How was your time there uh at that very prestigious university?
SPEAKER_01I loved it. Yeah. I so loved it. I mean, this was, you know, in the 2010s, like there's 11, 2011 to 2014. So it's obviously changed so much, and also just the world has changed so much since then. So there were definitely issues with it in terms of like representation and in terms of who was teaching and in terms of how I don't know. And the school I think has done a lot to grapple with that in the years since that I've heard from you know people who teach there and have gone there. Um, but I I truthfully had a great time there. Fantastic. I feel like I feel like I learned how to be a better human by going to school, and that's ultimately the stuff that I think I try to hold on to. Yeah. And I just met the most inspiring artists and amazing people that I continue to work with to this day, and I, you know, I just loved, I love I love a container. Uh-huh. I that's I I mean, I love Tupperware too, but I love I love it, I love a set of parameters, be it like a schedule or uh a set of people that you have to work with. I just find like, you know, that it just unlocks something in me. And some of the trouble I have, I think being a artist floating around in New York is that there aren't as many containers. There's not as many parameters, and so I don't know always where to put my energy or kind of what to what to what to sum it into. But in a school environment, I just feel like I I get it. And like I start kind of like clicking in ways that I that I um am thinking less and just doing more. It was also really hard. I had like some of the hardest experiences of my life at school and felt fell into deep depression, but ultimately I like I loved the experience of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's that you know, I it like there's no repertory companies anymore, and I I really wish there were because like that notion of like the ensemble of it all is so that is one of the best parts about being a part of a um you know a cohort like uh in in school is you get to know all these people and getting to know them really helps you connect more and that only helps the work get better. Um, but yeah, like you said, it's like when you're in New York City or just anywhere now, there's there's not many repertory companies, so it's like every new cast is a completely new group of people you have to get to know. Yeah, which can be overwhelming, but also exciting because it's new people, it's always nice to meet new people. Um yeah, there is something about like the ensemble that I I really miss from just from my own time at NYU and even at Adelphi. Um oh wait, so why at your time at Yale, uh was James Bundy was there, it was PFJ, Peter Francis James.
SPEAKER_01PFJ, Ron Van Lu, Evan Eunulis, who now runs Juilliard, uh Erica Faye, uh uh um Faye Simpson, who now is at NYG.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she's been there for for a few years now, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um Walton, I mean yeah, we just we had such a I yeah, I loved the teachers. I just felt taken care of, and I I just I just so appreciated kind of that we had that space to kind of fail and try and fail and try. And yeah. And um, I don't know, like in my mind too, it's like you know, Yale has such a reputation of being like such a a stuck up place. I I think or so sometimes I've heard that like people from Yale are just the same thing of NYU. Oh, well, it's a it's a weird thing. I mean, there's things, you know, sure. Uh right. There's a chip on your shoulder, be like, oh, I went to the school, so therefore I know more than than you do or whatever. And and I I love everything I I learned there, but like, you know, if someone kind of fresh to New York was like, should I go to grad school? Like, it's not it doesn't doesn't doesn't like it doesn't solve any of your issues. No. It gives you it gives you more um ways to problem solve. Sure. But it doesn't take away any of your deficiencies. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like like still trying to get a job out here, you know.
SPEAKER_01Of course we are, of course. And it's and it's so tricky to navigate, yeah, being an artist, and ultimately none of them really teach you what that means. They give you tools in a classroom, but in terms of like living your life as an artist, that's up that's up to you to decide and yeah figure out.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a perfect segue into like what how was your time coming right out of Yale? Like, did you find did you feel like you could hit the ground running, or did you feel like there was some dips or well?
SPEAKER_01I was so lucky. We mentioned Williamstown. So my my summer after I went there two summers in a row. Oh, really? I didn't know that. I went there after you um and I did free theater again. I did uh Sherlock Holmes. Oh, cool. I played Watson. Oh button. And the crazy thing is when they when they asked me to come back and do that, I had this like, oh, they want me to do free theater again. Like I was already outdoors doing free theater for families. Like, surely they want me to like play a role in one of the shows or whatever. And I was there was part of me that was like so like indignant for the first day. Uh-huh. But it was with Lila Neugebauer directing. Oh my god. I mean, you know, now she's now she's world famous. Incredible. But at the time, I was just like, I mean, I I loved Lila because she was a a directing intern that year, but I was like, with Lila and that, like, I don't know if that's really what I want to do with my summer. Yeah. And I was like, come on, Chris, like, it's gonna be so fun. It was so fun. And also that summer, Jordan Fine was there, who is now a Olivier nominated director many times over, and he directed me and my friend Mama Doo in Zoo Story, and we did it. And Scott Ellis and Bradley Cooper came to very cool, and like two days later, I got cast in Elephant Man there.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say again, another perfect segue because I saw that production and it was fantastic.
SPEAKER_01It was it was so much fun to do at Williamstown, and that was between my first and second year, and there were like rumblings of it moving to Broadway, but I was like, I'm still in school, and like I yeah, I'm not gonna like I'm not gonna leave. I I knew enough that I was like, I don't think I really want to leave school to do this one show where I had like a you know, like a scene basically, a small role. And I was like, I just feel like school, I don't know, I want to finish it. Yeah, and like March of my third year, I get a call or email from Calary being like, Hey Chris, checking your availability for uh a fall Broadway run of Elephant Man. Oh my god. And I was just like, uh I get that email every day. I'm I'm available. James Clary. And um, and then like a day later, I get the offer. Oh my god, that's awesome. This is before showcase, it's before everything. So I just was like, Oh, I'm gonna be on Broadway. Wow. With these amazing people in the show. So I graduated and actually, and I and I did a like a show at the Berkshires, and then I did a a smaller show off off, and then we started rehearsal, I don't know, in October or whatever. And and it was the gift that kept on giving because we did it that winter, and then somewhere in like January, they call us before uh a show, all on stage, and Scott Ellis, the director,'s there, and he's like, Hey everyone, so um we're moving the show to London and we want you all to come with us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was gonna say it did have a West End run. It did have a West End run.
SPEAKER_01So, and we all were just like, Oh my god. Um then we closed, I don't know, like February or March, and and then I think that like June we all started rehearsal in London. We ran through that August, which is just to say that like I I I felt like a I felt like a like a like a magical fairy being. I was like, I did the show for free at Williamstown, and it gave me my job out of school, and then it's taking me to the West End, which as I said earlier, I love London. Yeah, and so I got to live off Regents Park and like walk through Soho to the theater in that summer, and we like it was so idyllic, it was so beautiful. And at that time, I met Holly, who is my wife now, and we we met kind of in a magical moment around all this stuff happening. And like she was living in New Zealand, and when I was in London, I like she came to see me and I, you know, was had all this stuff happening, so I got to take her out to all these places, and it just felt like this moment where I was like, all dreams come true, tralala. And then and then I didn't work, you know. And then I and then I fell into depression and had no money and didn't work. But the first year out of school, yeah, it was like constant work with people that I admired, and so many friendships and exploration and meeting the love of love of my life and like traveling across the world to see each other. It was really truly not what I thought my life would be at that time. And I was just like, like it made me it made me believe in God a little bit. Yeah, it made me believe in God a little bit because I was just like the the the work less so, but meeting meeting Holly was like, Yeah, how what is life? Yeah, what what what is life?
SPEAKER_00Um all around one decision to go and do a free show at Williamstown.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that really that really it really set off so many, so many things. So, you know, I can shit talk Williamstown and also I can sit here and be like, I owe it so much of my of my life. Totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, there's a movie there. There's there's a movie there. Yeah. Let's do this, let's produce this, we'll make this happen.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, my my how we met, my wife and I. Yeah, I won't go into the the dirty, dirty details, but but this is actually the movie, is that she was with her friends for her bachelorette week. She was gonna marry someone. Oh my god, that's so cliche. It's cliche. And for part of her bachelorette week ceremonies, because she had never ever done any online dating or Tinder anything, they made her make a profile and they said, You have to go on one Tinder date as part of your Bachelorette week. And she made a profile, and she matched with me, and she was like, I'll go on a date with this guy. And they all came on the date, all of her friends with her. And I showed up. They came with her on the date. Yeah, it was like six of them. Did you know that was gonna happen? Oh my god. I didn't know any of this. I was just like, whatever. Perfect, like wrong. It's all there. Yeah. Yeah. Uh anyway, that is that is how that is how we met.
SPEAKER_00That is incredible.
SPEAKER_01So it and then obviously many other things happened after that. Yeah. Um, which you'll have to you'll have to subscribe to Paramount Plus when the movie is streaming to see what happens. But uh making millions of dollars. I shouldn't promote Paramount. What a horrible company. Sorry, you can it'll be it'll be.
SPEAKER_00What's an ethical our own independent production streaming and production company? Yeah, exactly. I don't know if it exists, but we'll we'll create it.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god. Anyway, so oh that's incredible though, dude. Crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy.
SPEAKER_00Choose a number one through seven.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna choose seven.
SPEAKER_00Seven? Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What do you believe is the actor's responsibility in civil activism in an industry that is about humanity?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I don't have a intelligent answer for this at all, so uh uh I'm also just like a white sis male, you know, so I I I I answer this knowing that like I I bring what I bring to the table and I look up to the people who are more civically engaged than I am and whose identity is literally, you know, in the in the cross in the crosshairs of of our current time and and and living. So I I can't pretend to know as much uh through my own lived experience, but I can say this that I I I do I do believe in theater so much, and the reason I believe in it is because it's a place where we ask many different people, hopefully of many different backgrounds, to come together and to collectively listen to one story. What that story is, is slowly but surely expanding, and we're including more stories for a general audience to listen to. We're still really grappling with that. We're also still really grappling with how do we bring in an audience that is way more expansive than you know the the middle class white 50 to 70 year old subscribers, the brimer generation. And I just I appreciate all the institutions that are working so hard to change both of those demographics, the stories that were told on stage, who's writing these stories, who's in these stories, what bodies are we seeing telling stories, and then also who are we bringing into the theater and how are we expanding access to that? Um I I think that those two things are so important, and as actors we have so little control over most of that stuff, right? And so I think the things that we do have control over as actors is like do I actually want to tell this story? And do I think that the story is worth telling when we choose jobs? Yeah, this is crazy actually. Remembering this, I got asked to audition for a show way back when, and it was to play like like a full-on Arab character. It was really and I was like, I remember this is you know in in 2000, I don't even remember when this was, 2010, 2011 or something. And I remember at the time being like, I'm confused. I maybe don't have like the like like the verbiage to express this right now, but I'm like, this isn't okay. And and and I I only said no to the audition. Yeah, and it was the first time where I was like, I need work, I need money, I have no money, I have no work, but this work and money isn't my work or money. Yeah. Yeah. And I need to make a decision right now to to support that. Yeah. And often our only power as an actor, if we are, you know, being asked to tell stories, is to we give our yes or we give our yes or no. Yeah. Right? Like, yeah. And by giving our yes, we say, I support you, ex-institution, telling Z story at this time to this audience, and I will throw my hat in to help be the thing. Or no is for whatever reason I don't, this isn't a part of my my my journey. Yeah. Um and I think that it's hard because we're all we all want to work, but it it's really important that we don't support these things that are, you know, either ignorant of what they're doing or worse, are just pandering to try to I don't know, please some level of donors or some I I feel that remnants of the past.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Also just like the the misrepresentation of it all, it's just like it's a it's a literal whitewash. Yeah. Um, it's so interesting you bring that up because I I I I remember this one instance where I was offered an audition where they were like, we need someone who can speak uh uh Hebrew, and you'll be playing this person who can speak that. And I'm like, I don't speak Hebrew at all. Uh and they're like, but you look like the character. And I'm just like, I don't speak this language, it's not my language, and it it it's it's just gonna be a waste of everyone's time. I don't care that I look like the this character, I'm not this. Person, so it's not going to be authentic. It's not worth uh trying to like force people to believe that uh I am like this person, and um I don't know. I think I I think also like in the past the the notion of and this still exists, especially like in the film industry world, uh the notion of like the transformative actor, like doing something that's so not your experience and making it seem authentic. I'm like, yeah, but there are people out there who that is their experience, and it could have been just natural to them if you gave them the the opportunity to perform it. Yeah, it's just the whitewashing of of things that really like gets to me at times, and I'm just like, Well, what like it's going back, it's going back to like this discussion, this that feeling that you had when you were a kid, and the social change of it all is just like because social change can be for good or bad. For sure, you know, for sure. It's like, so if I choose to do this thing, I am choosing to say that my interpretation of someone else's experience, authentic experience, is more valuable and more valid in the theater than their authentic experience. Yeah, you know, and it's like that doesn't sit right, you know. No, it doesn't make me think of that. And that's the tough thing about being an actor because you do have to change, quote unquote, yourself sometimes for a part.
SPEAKER_01For sure. Yeah. And and also you have to accept that like you can change all you want, but if like the person casting it doesn't see that in you or doesn't want it in you, then that's fine too. Yeah. This actor Danny Wallahan, I I don't remember, I don't know why this sticks out to me, but I remember it was some point in like the you know, some point that in 2016 or 2018 when like, you know, people were really actively trying to diversify roles and they were trying to, you know, bring in more people of color and like different ethnicities into into roles and on on stages because it was I mean, maybe maybe maybe this was actually more we we see you what time. So it was like at post that. But I remember like Danny posting this thing somewhere, just being like, white actors, stop complaining that like, oh, they're just casting someone of color. Like, can you just accept that you or like stop using that as an excuse? Like, just be better actors. Yeah. Can you just like can can white men just be better actors as opposed to complaining that like they're not getting jobs because people don't want to see like a white man on stage or like because they're like losing out to someone just because you know someone else represents a different culture community that that is woefully underserved in our community? Yeah. And I just loved it because it was just like, can you just fucking like just be good and stop relying on like institutional racism to get you work? Yeah, yeah. And like, yes, like please, like let me get cast less because someone in a chair of authority realizes that they've cast a show that's entirely white or entirely whatever, and they're just like, I don't think that we should just slouch towards complacency. Yeah, we need to have some agency in like who we're choosing to tell stories, but yeah, on stage, on screen, like wherever, yeah, like on podcasts. It's just like we just we just have to do better. And so, like as actors, we don't have the authority to like make those decisions, but we can be aligned with some understanding of like where we are and like all the privilege that you know you and I have, and and tell stories and also like I don't know, support the places and the people that are like engaging civically and are at least striving to fight against like what happens when when well frankly, like when there's fear or when there's complacency, which I think you know there is a lot of fear right now with like yeah, money and institutions and funding. You mentioned the NEA and like yeah, places are programming really safe things because it has DI DEI and anything, and you know, the grants get get thrown out, or like or the the institution might not get money and people have you know their priorities, but I just feel like I just feel like surely, surely there's there's at least there's at least some value in like uh making small choices that align with your values. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is it's like even right now, during this time that we're we're currently in where like funding for the arts is really not great. Um and I say great uh in a very italicized um there's this quote I'm gonna paraphrase the hell out of this. Uh Ibrahim X Kennedy has a book called Stamped from the Beginning, and in the beginning of it, uh he talks about like progress isn't a one, it isn't it isn't like a just adding, adding, adding, adding, adding. It's it takes place in these sort of pockets where one thing will progress, and then that other thing that had progressed will recede, but this other thing progresses, and then it's just back and forth. And over time, you can see through history, that's why we learn history, where, oh yeah, we have progressed through time in this way and progressed through this industry, and things have gotten better in certain ways. It's it's about like keeping your attention on these things and also to to connect it to what you were saying. The the notion of like it takes those what might seem like small choices to shift our understanding of things. Like when white actors come out and say like they're they're just doing it for DEI or like it's whatever, and it's like, no, you're actually what you're experiencing right now is equity. Yeah, yeah, like what you're experiencing right now is the great entitlement you have been privileged to have, whether you were conscious of it or not. Right. And now it's forcing you to have to evolve, yeah. And you don't like that. Yeah. And it I look, I'll admit, as a white person who has grown up in America, I recognize that I have biases and was raised in a racist community. It's something you have to face in yourself, and it's really hard, especially when you're older. Um, but it is it is all for the greater the greater good. Sorry, I only laugh because I was just thinking of one of my favorite movies, Hot Fuzz, where they say the greater good, but they're also they're all fascists who are saying that. So that's why I kind of got, I was like, maybe don't say that. Oh no. Um, but it is for the better good. The better, the better, the better good.
SPEAKER_01The better, the better greater, the better, greater good.
SPEAKER_00Um, oh my goodness. Well, Christopher, this was such a delight. Thank you so much for coming in and sitting down with me and chatting. This was so fun and enlightening. Uh, and it was great to finally get to really get to know you because at Williamstown we only kind of saw each other in passing.
SPEAKER_02I know.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I have always been such a huge fan of your work. Um anything you want to promote? Anything going on right now or that or coming up in the coming months?
SPEAKER_01I didn't even talk about this cool company that I'm a part of, but I want to shout out this company. I'm a member of um the PAC uh theater company, which is um a group of performers we all met doing wolf play at um a bunch of theaters, but ultimately at MCC Theater. And we created a company um that's based on equity and is based on kind of a new model of uh developing work from the ground up together and um giving ourselves more autonomy in this crazy, crazy world. And I just want to say, if you listen to this, that like maybe by the time you this airs, we will have some things buzzing. But we we've made five at least new plays in the last three or two and a half years. Fantastic. And um, we have uh a commission that we're starting with um MTC and Arena Stage, a co-commission between the two of them starting later this month. Um, and we were just at the Goodman at a new play festival. But I think that in the next year or so we'll we'll probably have a production slated, whether that be in in New York or or regionally. And so, you know, if you feel like Googling something, just check out the pack. Come check out some social page that we have. And um, if we are doing something, come and come and see us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Yeah. Well, thank you so much again for coming on, Christopher. Uh, well, that's it, folks. That's the end of this week's episode. We will see you next week. Bye!
