Gail Shalan

On this week's episode I sit down with the wonderful and dulcet tones of Gail Shalan. We discuss everything from the world of audiobooks to doing puppet Shakespeare!

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You can find more info about my work as an actor and voiceover artist on my website at: www.johnmaddaloni.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Do you want to be the person guessing or uh or with the thing in their head?

SPEAKER_04 0:06

I'll guess. You'll guess?

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Okay, good. That is probably for the best. I'll I'll try to make it easy-ish. Um no, I got one. I got one. Nice.

SPEAKER_05 0:17

Okay. Tree or Stalin?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Uh tree. Oh wait, actually. See, this is the thing. It's an interpretation game.

SPEAKER_05 0:25

It really is. And hard to play with a stranger.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Wait, oh, this is actually quite hard. Okay. I'm gonna say tree. But Yes, I'm gonna say tree. I'm gonna say tree there. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 0:36

Yeah. Tree or child. A child just screaming.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Yeah, I was just gonna say neighbor, oh their kid is always screaming. It's so funny. Um goddamn. Why did I ch this is harder than I thought for some reason.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

Uh-oh. This is a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Because there's so many different ways you can interpret this, but I think you know, I'll go child. That's like sacrilegious what I just did, but going from like an object to a person. I asked. I'll say children.

SPEAKER_05 1:03

That was the initial question as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I know, but usually that narrows it down, and I feel like I'm sort of sw swapping it around.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

No, no, no, it's okay. Child or butterfly?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I'll say child. Yeah, child.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

Okay. Child or butterfly.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

I fear I've made it even harder. Um child.

SPEAKER_05 1:21

Yeah, this is gonna get a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

I know, I made this hard. I I've confused, I feel like I've I've created a confusion here.

SPEAKER_05 1:27

Child or library book.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Library book.

SPEAKER_05 1:30

Whoa, okay, we're onto something now. Okay, okay. Whoa, okay. Library book or bookstore book.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

I'm gonna say library book still.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

Okay, okay. Um library book or uh Subway car.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Library book.

SPEAKER_05 1:50

This is a really hard game. You are surprisingly close right now. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I I was uh that's why I got so excited. You got very close very quickly.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

Uh library book or I'm like almost about to mouth it.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

I don't know why.

SPEAKER_05 2:06

Can we get some miming involved?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Uh no, I think you can get it. Library book is very close.

SPEAKER_05 2:14

Library book or um audiobook? Yeah!

SPEAKER_06 2:19

Oh, we had a theme that I should have known.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

I was like, so do you do you get why? Uh because I'm like, it's a thing, but it's it's voiced by people. So I'm like, it like that's why I was like Tree or Stalin. I was like, okay, well, it's kind of a it's a little bit of both in a way.

SPEAKER_05 2:38

I could also see the logic of like a book is made of paper, maybe made of it.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Oh okay, yeah, yeah. You're you're making it But you could really go either way, right? You're giving me more credit than I think I deserve, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 2:51

Just trying to be supportive.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

I appreciate it. Welcome to Working Class Acts. Hello and welcome to the Working Class Acts podcast. I'm your host, John Matalone. My guest is staring at me like, what the fuck were you just doing? Who are you? It's something I do literally every episode. Uh I am here today with a new friend. I'm gonna say that, a new friend. She is a storyteller on screen, on stage, and behind the mic. She is a three-time Audi award-winning audiobook narrator. She is an alum of the Bristol Old Vic Theater Program, and she is a what was the last thing you said? And she's just a great person. She's just what I said.

SPEAKER_05 3:55

I'm like, I'm a great person.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

She's a great person.

SPEAKER_05 3:59

She's a curious human.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

She's a curious human. That is it. And that is true because we've been chatting up a storm even before she got on the mic. It's Gail Shallon. Gail Shallon. How are you, Gail?

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Hey, John.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

I'm so glad you're finally here. You're a great person. Great, curious person. Um, well, I'm so glad you're here. It's been a couple of years we've been trying to get you on the podcast now, and we're finally here doing it, and we've already been having some great conversations. It's been so fun.

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Yes, it's true. It's so good talking with you already.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Oh my god, yes. Um, so Gail, you know uh you know Britton Seibert. That's how we kind of got in contact. Yes. That's season one, episode one for those uh listening, watching, whatever you do. I listened. Yes. Um, how did you get to know uh Britton? You were saying that you met at at school, yes?

SPEAKER_05 4:48

Yeah, Brittany and I met in our undergrad training at Boston University. We were in the same class. Oh my god, fantastic. A pleasure and a delight.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:56

Um, and we also did study abroad together and have kept in touch. And it's just lovely to have her in my life.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Oh, that's so lovely. She's such a sweet person. Yes. Um So, Gail, take me back. Show me where where did you grow up? Where where were you born?

SPEAKER_05 5:14

Okay. Two different answers there. There you go. Um, I was born in Chicago, Illinois.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 5:20

I lived there for approximately six months of my life.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 5:24

Um, and then my folks kind of hopped around a little bit, um, mostly in the New England area. So after Chicago, they moved to Providence and then uh Kennybunkport, Maine.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Kennybunk?

SPEAKER_05 5:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

That's a fun name.

SPEAKER_05 5:41

Yeah. We're full of them in New England.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I am easily distracted.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

So I have ADHD, so we're good. Yeah. Um, and and then settled in uh Stockbridge, Massachusetts, in the Berkshires, which was a great place to grow up as a little bartsy child.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

I'm from uh I'm from just outside Albany, New York, so not terribly far from the Berkshires.

SPEAKER_05 6:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Um well that's great. So you you spent most of your your childhood.

SPEAKER_05 6:05

Yes, I grew up, I would say I grew up in the Berkshires, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Fantastic. And did you enjoy it out there?

SPEAKER_05 6:10

Beautiful. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just the best. And like truly to be a wild, free, hippie child and run around in the woods is something possible, and also to be a weird theater kid is also very possible in the Berkshires.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

I love it. Yeah. And where did you catch the proverbial bug, as it were, for storytelling?

SPEAKER_05 6:30

Right. Yeah. Um the tale goes that I was born with it, really. Uh no, kind of came out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Came out quoting Shakespeare and just went from there. She's a genius, she hasn't even read it yet. Whoa, osmosis. Uh my um my grandparents used to take me around the neighborhood as a very wee one, and I would introduce them to everybody in the neighborhood and ask if we could go play in their backyard. And that's where my mother says my very uncharacteristic uh desire to sort of go for it and be in the spotlight came from. But I think um I recognized that I wanted to do this professionally when I was about eight or nine years old. Um, I was living in the Berkshires. There was an amazing theater company called Shakespeare and Company that was like 10 minutes from my house. Yeah. And they had a great summer program uh for kids. So I was doing the Scottish play at age nine and going like this is my jam. Also in the school play was Jack and Jack and the Giant, the Jack the Gentle Giant Killer. Oh, yeah. I got to play Jack the Gentle Giant Killer.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

And then Gentle Giant Killer.

SPEAKER_05 7:41

I know, seems like a bit of an oxymoron, but that therein lies the rub, right? I love it. So yeah. Wait, I want to see that show. Come on. So fantastic. And then was also in my first indie feature that year. So like all these things were happening, and I was like, this is it. Yeah, this is the life. Let's go. Um and the and yeah, never looked back, really.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Oh, that's awesome. That's so wonderful. Yeah. And did you go and and did you like, was there like a drama club that you would like be a part of? Did you do like any of those extracurriculars or something like that?

SPEAKER_05 8:12

Or as many as I could fit in. Yeah. Yeah. I I often had an issue because Shakespeare and Company would run this great uh teen program in the spring for students in the area, and the school would have the musical on at the same time, and I would try to do them both. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

A terrible idea. Did were you successful at at least pulling it off, or was it like just it was just too much?

SPEAKER_05 8:39

I think I did it one year and was like, I should probably never do this again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, we were that's kind of funny that you say that because we were just talking before uh before we were recording about like the notion of scheduling and all this stuff because we both do audiobooks. It's such a challenge. It's that's that's a job in and of itself, is just the scheduling of it all. Like uh like for audiobooks and stuff like that. It's you have to really break down your schedules and stuff. Um well that's wonderful. Shakespeare and Co. Uh, when was like the decision I think I want to do this with my life? Did what did you make that decision pretty early on, or was that something you had to gradually get to?

SPEAKER_05 9:20

I I'm being a little facetious, but but that was the moment that I really knew and and and told everybody. And then it was sort of an uphill battle of convincing those who supported me that that it was something smart to go for. Sure. Um, but you know, growing up in that area, there was just an unlimited uh series of opportunities to take advantage of creative development and and pre-professional development.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:46

And so then when time for uh university came, I was sort of already decided that I would be going to an acting conservatory because that was the way to become an actor from what I researched.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Bury yourself in it, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:02

Question that theory, listeners. But but but that's what I knew at the time and had a lot of great mentors and really supportive parents in in sort of figuring that out. And the compromise with my folks was um they would help me financially through school if I also got a liberal arts degree. So so then it kind of narrowed down where I was looking.

SPEAKER_06 10:22

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 10:22

And I knew I'd I'd gone to um London as a part of a choir trip when I was 13 or 14 years old and stepped on the ground and was like, this is where I belong. Yeah. And saw some theater while I was there and was like, oh, it's better here. It just felt more aligned. There was something magical about it for me.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:42

And so I knew I wanted to get back to the UK. So the way I made my list of schools to apply to was which ones have abroad programs in the UK. I mean, kind of convoluted, but yeah, it did get me there.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

I'm sure it sort of narrows down, like you need a liberal arts degree, you a place that can also go overseas at some point. I mean, I'm sure that will narrow it down to a certain point.

SPEAKER_05 11:04

For those of us who have a hard time making choices, yeah, it was a process of elimination, and then and then the real elimination was who would take me as a student.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

And then you audition.

SPEAKER_05 11:14

Yeah. Oh, right. That part. Yeah, that bit. Um so so then I ended up at Boston University, um, which was a great place to be, and like just far enough away from home, but not too far. Yeah, yeah. Uh a fantastic city to be a student in. Yeah, just great.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Um going back a little bit, uh when you were saying that like there was uh maybe a little pushback from from people who were trying to support you. Are there any other people in your family that are like artists or kind of understand this this world, this entertainment world?

SPEAKER_05 11:45

I I mean I felt pretty alone as a performer. I there's a lot of creatives in my family, a lot of artists. My brother and mother are ceramic artists.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Oh, awesome.

SPEAKER_05 11:55

Um, my uh my whole family's very creative. Um and and I have an aunt and uncle who are in filmmaking, but we never really as a young person connected over those things.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:08

Um I don't know. Maybe my my parents can be uh private people. Sure. Um and I think there was some wariness also about the practicality of of that decision. Of course. Of course, yeah. Um but no, I don't think uh in my in my immediate family I had a lot of direct exposure to the performing arts.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah, gotcha. Fascinating. I love that. I love hearing people's journey to actually getting to like the study of it all because everybody's journey is different. Uh you know, I had some people in my grad school who didn't study theater at all before they went there. And it's like I I'm just always so fascinated by the decision and like the follow-through.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

Well, and I should say, like, I think I think you're right that there's lots of pathways here. And um in hindsight, I had a really creative, you know, artist's upbringing. I had an artist's vocabulary and point of view from um from both of my parents, and also I went to a Waldorf school as a young person, which is an incredibly creative private education. Okay. Um that's very holistic in its style. And so we would we would do a play every year. Yeah. And in that program, one of my classmates' fathers was a professional actor who, Robert Biggs, who ended up becoming a mentor of mine, and uh actually probably was my gateway into puppetry, which I think also puppetry.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

I missed puppetry. I didn't say puppetry in the beginning. That's she does puppetry puppetry.

SPEAKER_05 13:36

I like puppets too. She likes puppets. Um but no, I don't know. It's it when I I'm really into that stuff, and when I think about it, I I think because a maybe of a slightly more unconventional seating of creativity, there's an interest in that form of storytelling or art making as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:52

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Especially the past couple of years, I feel like the past decade in particular, puppetry within the theater community. I think it's really awesome. Like some of the stuff, like I mean, I think the most obvious example is like Warhorse, which I think was the thing that really, I think, probably gave pupp puppetry uh more of a I don't want to say a legitimacy, it's always had a legitimacy, but something that people really view as like, oh, this is a really great way of telling stories and can add so much to the story.

SPEAKER_05 14:21

I think it did kind of do that thing of like we we as actors talk about like legit work. It did definitely capital L legit puppets, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

It's like so much. You have a legit agent. It's not just Sesame Street and Avenue Q anymore. Like, yeah. Oh, I loved Avenue Q as a kid, though. Brilliant puppetry. Brilliant. And also just like in a way that you would never expect. Totally. Like taking, you know, what might be presumed a child-like form and having them curse and fuck and be subversive with a literally fuck. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Yeah, puppets fucking. That's a big thing. Yeah, that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Did you see Hand to God?

SPEAKER_04 14:56

I haven't seen Hand to God.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Oh my god, I saw it twice when it was on Broad. I loved it. Yeah. Um, actually, funnily enough, if I I don't know if I've told this story, but I it was one of my pieces to get into grad school. I did Hand to God. I made my own little puppet. Yes. Um, I'm looking around the room as if I like nearby. I don't know where uh my puppets are. I see a mask. I mean it's possible. I converted him into a cat puppet later for another show I was doing.

SPEAKER_05 15:19

So um actor, a real transformative actor.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Oh yeah, yeah, my hand. Um so you went to BU.

SPEAKER_05 15:26

Yes. I got a great education. It's an incredibly well-rounded education um with a lot of opportunity to carve your own pathway and and decide who you want to be as an artist and dis and sort of discover that. Yeah. Um and and actually a puppet story from a sock puppet story from BU. I I chose Britton and I both were acting majors. So there's two choices for the conservatory. You can either be acting or theater arts, or at least this is how it was when we were there. Um and theater arts is a bit more uh devising-based. Folks who are maybe multidisciplinary in some way um might choose that. And acting is much more the sort of uh standard old school um UK French-based acting conservatory training. Um and I didn't know at the time that I had ADHD, but something in me really knew that I needed the structure in order to be free.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 16:24

So that's where the choice came from. Uh and we had a final project where we would do 10 different pieces and they each had to fit into a certain structure. Um, you know, one piece from uh Shakespeare, one piece from um modern American theater, one piece that was a monologue, one that was a blah blah blah. Yeah. Um and so for my Shakespeare piece, I did uh white and black sock puppet Othello.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Othello Iago scene. Oh my god. So, you know, I love that.

SPEAKER_05 16:56

Even then the sock puppets were having a moment, at least at Boston University.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

That's kind of brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 17:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

And I thought so. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

Yeah, and then I'm really proud of this. And then I was like, and then I like viciously ripped them off my hands and went into an Iago monologue and was like, yes, wait, that's so creative.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

I love that. Wait, that's really, really cool.

SPEAKER_05 17:15

It was it was fun. They were really good about giving us creative space.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Oh, that's awesome. Now, to during your time at BU, you said you went to Lambda. Like that was that that was the study abroad.

SPEAKER_05 17:24

That was one of the study abroad options that the acting major was encouraged to do. Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

And you you took that, yes?

SPEAKER_05 17:31

And I sure did. That was the whole reason I was there.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Oh my god, I love it. So wait, so it forgive me if I'm if I'm losing track a little bit. Because you went to Lambda, but you also did the old Vic the the That's right.

SPEAKER_05 17:43

So that was a graduate program. Old Vic was uh grad school. And um definitely found my way back there because of my study abroad. Yeah. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

And how much time between like BU and and choosing uh the old Vic, well like how much time had passed? What was the what was the decision behind that? Because that can be very different for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_05 18:05

It definitely is. I think it's really personal. And I think one of the things I'm proud of in my grad school application process is that I I learned that choosing to go to school in the first place, but choosing to go back to school as well for further graduate degree um is is for me, right? Is I I have personal reasons that I'm choosing to do that. And so things you want to work on. I'm auditioning the schools, right? Versus versus the opposite, which is you know also true.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

They're trying to find the right fit, but that that is I think you should say that again because uh honestly, because that that was I wish someone had said that to me. Yeah. Because it it it can be very daunting to to go and audition for these big schools. Yeah. And you're auditioning them just as much as they're auditioning you.

SPEAKER_05 18:53

Right. And I think I think what I learned from BU is as solid as the education was, and as many amazing people as I was in that program with, it there were many things about it that weren't quite the right fit for me. But I was so keen to be uh in a conservatory program, and just I was very in a people-pleasing space in my life, of course, and was like, you know, pick me, pick me. And uh they did, and I went, wee, yes, of course. You you checked all those boxes, so here we go. Um but I didn't really take the time to go, does this feel right? Yeah. And and so my process of picking a graduate school um came from a moment in my life where I was deeply unsatisfied with the shape of it.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

Um, and yearning, like regularly in tears, yearning for the UK. Just really missing being there and and the the people there, the culture there, the especially uh culture with a capital C around theater making and the arts.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Um London is just such a fucking great city, too. It's the awesome.

SPEAKER_05 20:03

Yeah, yeah. So I was just like, everything feels more right there. Yeah, it feels more aligned with what I want, uh, especially as an artist. And how do I get back there? That's that's the question. So then I started to look at UK graduate programs and did some another another hot tip for those thinking about graduate school. Hot tip, coming to right, folks. Come in. Um shop the schools, go visit them, do a short course. I did like weekend and week-long courses at maybe two or three of the schools I was interested in going to. Oh, it's a great idea. Some interviews with grads and interviews with faculty at other ones.

SPEAKER_06 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:43

Um and then kind of had a magical experience of getting into graduate school. That's great. Happy to tell you about if you want to. Please, I love I love hearing people's stories. I knew that I was looking at these schools. I'd sort of made a short list. I had a fantastic experience at Bristol Old Vic. I did uh musical theater singing course. Oh, fun. It was very fun. Um which like singing was um scared me a little bit at that time. Oh, yeah. Still does, actually, to be honest. But I was like, yo, okay, I'm gonna do this because it's scary. Yeah. And I was the only uh person who was interested in the school for another reason who was there. Yeah. So they kind of figured that out about me in that week. And they were like, well, why don't you sit down with the person who runs the master's program? And I had a nice little chat with him and we met, and I I really got to get a feel of the space and the place for myself.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:29

Um and then I came back to Massachusetts, and a friend of mine who I'd met through Williamstown Theater Festival had graduated. You went to Williamstown as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Oh my god, we had so much to talk about. Oh my god, were you an apprentice?

SPEAKER_05 21:45

Yes, were you? Yeah. Oh my god, should we talk about that weekend on this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

I've talked about it. Trust me, I've had at least three other people have talked about Williamstown apprentice. We we hold nothing back.

SPEAKER_05 21:56

Another experience that was like maybe not great in and of itself. But led to many, many great things.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

I would agree with that for myself as well. Like a lot of like it was grueling.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Um, I I got lucky when I was there that I was like, I got cast in the cabaret, so I had something I got to every week.

SPEAKER_05 22:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Because there was no guarantee of performing. Sure was not. There wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. Um, which is I I've said this so many times before, but I think every I'm gonna say this right into the camera. If you're an educational institution, you need to have parameters around how many times people get to perform. I hate the bullshit excuse of, well, in the real world, rejection is a big thing. Fuck you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck you. This is an educational institution. People need to build up their reps so that the real world, they'll learn about rejection in the real world. We all learn about it.

SPEAKER_05 22:49

Is pay to play and how it's fake system.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Um but hey, let's go. Uh finish finish your first one, and then we we can talk more about Williamstown.

SPEAKER_05 23:02

That's great. Yeah, so so I I felt really um taken care of, wanted heard included in even that short moment, and was like, I have a good feeling about this.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Good.

SPEAKER_05 23:15

Moved back to Mass, connected with a friend who'd gone to the program who I knew through Williamstown.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:21

And she was like, hey, you know, they're having their New York New York auditions uh in like a week or two. You could just come to New York City and just, you know, sit down again with the person and just refresh your face to them and like, you know, make that connection. And at the time I was like, oh no, I can't, I I could never do that. That's just like wildly erratic and unplanned. And what am I thinking? Um tells you a lot about what I'm my brain is like this day is like take a bus from Western Mass to New York City, you'll be fine. Hell yeah. Um and so I had this dream that that Kim Durham, who was running the program at the time, uh, sat down with me for a coffee and was like, you know, would you like to audition right now? We're ready for you.

SPEAKER_06 24:05

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_05 24:06

And I was like, um, sure. Which was very uncharacteristic at the time because I didn't even want to get on the bus and go to New York City. So I don't know why I said yes. And the dream I said yes. And I did a Rosalind piece from As You Like It. Of course. And I oh oh oh they had a sing and I did a sound of music piece, and I I don't remember what the other contemporary. Oh no, it was it was a CQ Quintana piece from Scissoring. What is oh from C CQ Quintana? Do you know? No, I don't think they're an amazing playwright. Oh no, I'll have them all players.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

I'll look them up.

SPEAKER_05 24:39

Um and who I met at Williamstown. I'm at CQ. Yeah, see good things, good people. See, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

There are a lot of metal. They got a lot of good stuff from that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 24:48

Yeah, and they got a lot of free labor. Yeah, paid paid for labor. Okay. So can't believe it.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

I look back on it now, and I'm just like so embarrassed by it.

SPEAKER_05 24:57

But isn't it also gratifying that we've come around to this place where like it's like it's like oh goodness?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah, yeah. And they were like, yeah, no, we you can't do that. That was not okay. It's not okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:06

Our bad. We were wrong. It feels good. It feels good.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

It does.

SPEAKER_05 25:11

Um, so in the dream, I do all these pieces, and Kim is like, that was great. Would you like to come to the school? Wow, she offered it right in. What? Yeah. And I was like, okay, well, that's a dream. So fuck yeah. And then I was like, Yes, and I never woke up again. I'm still there right now. Um the coin is it no, it's a top and the um so we my friend was like, well, just come and also maybe like have a monologue. So I emailed Kim and he was like, Yeah, let's go, let's go get coffee. That sounds great. Monday.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

You're like, Are you gonna ask me to audition for you? Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 25:54

Well, so then he goes, he's like, So, like, are are you thinking that you might want to audition for the program next year? And I was like, Yeah, that's my thought. He's like, You wouldn't have to have anything with you today, would you? Because we have an open slot. We just happen to have an open slot in like two hours. I I that might be too much. I understand if you don't have things together and it's too fast. He's like, but if you'd like. And I was like, holy shit, yes. Okay, all right, I gotta do this, do this, girl, do this. And so I did it.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Did you tell them in that moment?

SPEAKER_05 26:25

I just had a dream where you literally, I don't know if I've ever told Kim this. I might have told him, I don't know. But but much later, after I got into the course.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Whoa, that's wild.

SPEAKER_05 26:34

The pieces, the notes he gave me in my dream were the notes he gave me in the audition.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Stop it.

SPEAKER_05 26:41

I can't. It's real. I also had a prophetic dream about a snowplow, actually. Be but that's a different thing. But okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

So a totally separate dream. I was the snowplow.

SPEAKER_05 26:52

Same witchcraft, different character. Um, and so I did the audition and he was like, This is our first stop, so I can't officially say anything, but I think you'd be a really great fit for this program. Oh my god. Can you work on getting your finances together to come over? Because I think that would be great. And I was like, this has literally never happened to me. I was at such a low point, my my self-esteem was so, so low. And I was just like, it just felt like a trick or like just totally fake and but also completely aligned, which I'm learning more now. It was this like intuitive sense that um has been so so helpful in my creative career that I just completely distrusted at that time in my life. Yeah. And it was the first real ping. I mean, maybe the chorus trip to London when I was 13 was the first real ping. But it was the first sort of like, oh, I'm supposed to be here. This feels right. And instead of this like highly anxious, frenetic experience, I suddenly felt super grounded. I was like, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah. Grad school was extremely rehabilitating for me as well. Yeah. I I it was, you know, it was I had like many years where I wasn't really working that much, or was just getting jobs that like weren't really, you know, what I was looking to do, and and or was just like not terribly fulfilling, or just not paid enough, or yeah, you know, so many things. Um I was working as a dog walker, and like that was exhausting. And just like yeah, just like getting into this program that here here's a little story I'll tell. And then maybe this is just like very grandiose or whatever, or or just like so when I was a kid, there was a show I watched, I'm sure you've all heard of it. It's called Dexter, starring Michael C. Hall. Yeah, it's about uh uh altruistic serial killer, I guess you could say is what it's about. He kills only bad people, but it Michael C. Hall was the lead of this show. They've had a couple of spinoffs, uh, and I just loved his performance. I thought he was just fucking amazing.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

I was like, oh, where like where did this guy study or whatever? I'm like 13 at the time, and that's when I found out about Tish and NYU. Yeah, um, and then many years later, after I got in, I got to meet him and told him that, and he was just so nice and sweet. Um, and I don't know, I I I guess I say this to say, like, some things are a little bit kismet. Like, if you're connecting to something, yes, really do the research on why you connect with it. Yes. And now that I say that, I'm like, he was playing a serial killer. What does that say about me? Um, but there was something about his performance. He just was so he clearly understood the parameters of this character, and like there was something about it that made me go, I need to pursue that. And it was just a wild experience to be like accepted at that school, and I was like, oh yeah, even back then, I I sensed something about coming to this place was right there.

SPEAKER_05 30:29

It's it is this deeper uh animalistic knowledge that you have of your own sensibilities aligning with what the how this person is exploring storytelling. Yeah, it's like, and and maybe you don't have all the words for that or all the experience to add all that up, but there's something in you that is deeply intelligent. Yeah, like like recognizes like, right? You're like, oh, this is we I am of this thing. Yeah. And and I I listened to Jonathan Groff recently on on Amy Polar. Jonathan Groff. Oh, on Amy Polar. I love Amy Polar. Yeah, oh my gosh. And that that episode is fantastic. But he was talking about his experience in Spring Awakening and how he sort of he he had a conversation with the director where he was like, I think it was during the audition process, he was like, please give me this opportunity because I know how good I can be, even though I'm not that good yet. Oh, and he and he was like, and I I meant that. Like I knew that I could grow into this thing. And it was he's like, I feel like I've gotten there, but I'm paraphrasing, but like but like but I wasn't there. Yeah, and and I was like, oh my gosh, that feeling. Like I so recognize that of like this is subjective what we do. Yeah. But you can see what you think is great and and know that you have a way to find your path there, even if you don't know what that way is.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Here's a question.

SPEAKER_05 31:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Is connection subjective or objective?

SPEAKER_05 31:51

Give me more than that.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

I don't know. I it's just a qu it's a question that really just came into my head right now of just like well, I had this subjectively, like so going back to Dexter. Yeah. Subjectively, I watched the show and was like, I think this show is great. It's good.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

I'm connecting with it somehow.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

And then and then many years later, I got into a school that that this person also went to. And like I connected with that, and that was somewhat objective in a way. Like like my my body and my mind, so I don't even know where this question is going. But there, I'm like, that is an I think there's something in that. Is connection subjective or objective?

SPEAKER_05 32:36

Yeah, I I wonder whether I guess it's both. I guess I guess I feel like this goes into the the the nature and nurture space. Yeah, yeah. And that and that so I I recently narrated a book about brains, about neuroscience. Oh god, wow. Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

I'm sure it was very enlightening.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

It was very enlightening. It's called The Fox, The Shrew, and You. Oh. And uh forgive me, I cannot remember the author's name. Somebody very smart, very smart neuroscientist. Um but the the thesis of the book is um looking at uh all animals throughout all of Earth's history's brains and how that led to how the human brain has specialized and developed to be this amazing machine for adaptation, sensory awareness, mostly through the sense of sight as the primary driver. Yeah, and the like ability to perceive on many levels what we're picking up around us, and then translate that in a very short amount of time to what it means for us to do to survive.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

Um in a very subjective way, because the other creatures that we're interacting with are subjective. So it is both, I guess, objective in the sense of it's a scientific process, yeah, but highly subjective in that it's there's it's idiosyncratically different for every single person every single time.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:10

Um, and they did this uh wild study on cab drivers in London because the streets of London are so mad. Yeah, just for years they train walking, scooters, bikes to get a mind map of the streets of London so that they, you know, hypothetically pre-GPS. I don't know, but they're not relying on that system, right? They know. And it changed their brain chemistry and it changed the way that their brain works so that they became like super experts at geographic location. Yeah. Their brain started to understand spatial awareness in a way that most human brains just don't.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:45

And that was an example of how quickly we adapt to things, how specialized we can get, and then how quickly we lose that when we're not paying attention. So I come back around to this.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Or if when you replace it with something else like a phone that can just tell you this information. And it's like, okay, well, now I'm dumber. Or not as intuitive.

SPEAKER_05 35:03

Yes. And so that's my point is that I think the it is both subjective and objective. Connections, when you when you pay attention to them, it becomes more an objective part of your scientific process as a creature to notice them, to follow them, to align yourself with them. You're programming yourself to do that. And as actors, we are training our systems to be emotionally intelligent. Yeah. So we are actually objectively much better at that, hypothetically, if we're good actors over over a long process of time. Yeah. Um, it's a muscle. We grow the muscle. Yeah. And we probably have some innate inclination toward it to begin with. Maybe that drew us toward the thing. But there's subjectivity is the entire you know, ground rule for that whole thing. Like that, that's it's all subjective.

unknown 35:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 35:53

So it's a yes and.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

My my mind. Wow. I could listen to you talk about that for ages. Okay, so well let's let's go back then to um so you went through the old Vic program. Yes. What was it like getting out of there? And when did you come back? Did you come right back to the U.S. after that? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:13

I mean, I I tried to game the system and stay as long as I could. And actually, at the time that I was at Bristol, uh, we had this amazing teacher, Kate Siebert, who lives here in New York, who is an amazing actress and fantastic acting coach, and also business of acting coach. And so she facilitated our entrance into wherever we were going in the globe because one of the great parts of my program is that it was international. Oh, great. So everybody was from all over the world in my course. Which was very cool. Yeah. And also has challenges on the professional side of things. Because we don't necessarily graduate with a network. Um, we're not graduating into the industry that we trained in, right? We don't have the connections that Tish has, we don't have the connections that Yale School of Drama has. I mean, we we do, but we legally can't work in the country that we have them for most of us.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

That is a very astute observation. I never even thought about that. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:06

And so, but Kate did. She was on it because she was actually a graduate, American graduate of the program. And so she facilitated a showcase for us here in New York and also a lot of great um professional entry points uh here in the city and continues to foster that community here.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Right.

SPEAKER_05 37:22

However, so so long story long, she encouraged us to come to the US to get headshots if we were gonna work in the US, which is a great piece of advice. So I'd come back to the US to get headshots after our classes ended. Um our showcase was several months later, and my visa also expired several months later. So then promptly jetted right back over to the UK and basically stayed out as long as I could and booked an audiobook with Audible UK. Oh, nice. And recorded on the last three days of my visa. So if there were pickups, that's too bad.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

I never got better hope and pray that we got it right the first time.

SPEAKER_05 38:25

Yeah, correct. Um just edit the book.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Right.

SPEAKER_05 38:30

Yeah, exactly. So that was that was that experience. And then unfortunately, I my grandmother was on her way out of this world and she lived in New Jersey, and I wanted to be there for that. So that was a a good reason to come home.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:43

Um, and then kind of against my will, was like, well, I guess I gotta make New York work.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:48

And it's been the best thing that ever happened to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Good. I'm glad. I know this city is fucking awesome.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

This is Yes, No, and sometimes why. This is where I ask three rounds of rapid fire, yes or no questions to Gail. And whenever my interest is piqued, I'll just ask why intermittently. And she'll answer. So here we go. Okay. Are you ready to go? I'm ready. Here we go. Oh, and all these questions were sourced from you guessed it, teambuilding.com. Wow. Let's go, team. Yes, team building. Round one. You ready, Gail? Yes. Here we go. Do you like spiders?

SPEAKER_05 39:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Why?

SPEAKER_05 39:28

Oh, I just Charlotte's Webb, really. Really? Yeah, that's probably the reason why.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Okay. But that's the one. That's the first time though. Oh, I think I've done a why on the first one. Oh, that's probably not true. I don't know. But a lot of people say no to that.

SPEAKER_05 39:39

Oh, I know. I know, but they're just fascinating magical creatures and they take care of us. Yeah, they really do. Beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

They're incredible. Have you ever been to summer camp?

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

Do you have an imaginary friend?

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Have you ever caught a fish?

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Why? And what happened?

SPEAKER_05 39:55

Um uh we used to go fishing at my grandparents' place. They had a little like lake nearby. Oh. And I was quite young, and I don't know, maybe seven or eight. And I was a bad fisher. Like I was really hard. And my brother was like really good. My brother's like very good at everything. And he would always catch a fish. He'd be like, yeah, and like I'm strong. And I'd be like, oh, I suck at fishing. And then one day I caught one. And I don't know what I thought was gonna happen. Like I'd watched him catch a fish. Like, but I think I thought it was gonna be like in the cartoons or something where it was just like on the string, but it was it's still alive when you catch it. Oh, yeah. And it was like flailing around. It was like a hook stuff. And like and then and then my pop was like, okay, now you gotta like take the hook out of its mouth. And I was and I just freaked out. And they lived on top of this hill. And I literally dropped the thing and ran all the way back up to their house and was like, I'm never fishing again. And I don't think I have since.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Well, see, that's the trouble with cartoons, you know. Sometimes it like what because I thought the same thing for a lot that they were just like, oh, they're hanging on because they're still eating the thing that you put on the bait, you know. Without a snack and then they'll be on the room. Oh no, it's like you've pierced their skin with a torture. I know, poor, poor things. Are you an only child?

SPEAKER_05 41:11

No.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Do you work full-time?

SPEAKER_05 41:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Do you like your job?

SPEAKER_05 41:14

What does that question mean? Can I ask class why?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:18

How do we define that?

SPEAKER_01 41:19

That I you know, that is a great question. I think it's a it's a nine to five question. Uh-huh. You know, like I think that's a question for nine to fivers. Okay. You know, and as artists, that's such an abstract concept. Or I guess it's not an abstract contract, but a concept. Right. It's just a distant concept, I feel like, because we work just weird hours whenever we're called or whatever. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

Yeah. Well, it's in that's interesting. I I sometimes do structure my days as much. Well, it depends. It depends phases of my life. I've tried.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah. I've given it a good go. I love it. Are you married?

SPEAKER_05 42:02

No.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Do you have kids?

SPEAKER_03 42:04

No.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Do you drive?

SPEAKER_03 42:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Do you know how to cook?

SPEAKER_03 42:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

Have you ever had stitches?

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Why?

SPEAKER_03 42:12

Uh uh wisdom teeth.

SPEAKER_05 42:15

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah. Oh, God. I might have to get mine out. Oh. They they apparently well, like my dentist said the two of them are are looking like they're coming in. And I'm like, Really? Now? Now? That's what I was saying. I was like, I thought that was like for for when you're younger. I thought it was past it.

SPEAKER_05 42:32

I got them out in high school.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

My brother got them out in high school. He got four of them out. Yeah, me too. All four? Awful. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 42:38

Awful. And Per Cassette, worse. Worse. And then I chose to watch The Tenth Kingdom, which is the trippiest series you've ever seen. And Pan's Labyrinth.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Why are you watching all these? And the science of sleep. Yeah. I don't know. I was a very pretentious 17-year-old.

SPEAKER_05 42:56

And I was like, yeah, I don't know. But it was a it was not a good time.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Oh my god. Well, that's the end of round one. Perfect. Okay. How are we feeling? How are we feeling? Great. I love this. Good. Okay, great. Here we go. The questions get progressively harder, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_05 43:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Um, third round is existential. Oh, I'm great.

SPEAKER_05 43:16

I'm already ready.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Round two. Ready? Yeah. Here we go. Do you have any hobbies? Yeah. Do you believe in ghosts? Yes. Are you watching any new TV shows at the moment?

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

Have you ever been in a band?

SPEAKER_03 43:28

Um, yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Why?

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Why have I been in a band? Yeah, why? Because uh Yeah, sometimes it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

I'm like, it probably should be yes, no, and sometimes why and what and all the other details.

SPEAKER_05 43:41

Um yeah, uh why is actually because my uh writing partner now, we we write scripts together. Um when we were in grad school together, we were looking for a quiet way to connect, I think, really is what it was. Um and we were also both learning instruments. Uh they were learning guitar and I was learning ukulele and we were we were singing so fun, and we were like, let's do some covers. And then we started to play music in the morning before our our warm-up. So we'd get there like super early at school and we'd play music, and people kept walking through being like, We really like your music. And like, and then we started to write some original songs, and then the um sound tutor at Bristol Old Vic, Andy Jenks, recorded an album for us. Whoa. Um, so we graduated with a little folk album.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

That's awesome. And this was only uh this is uh started at your time at grad school.

SPEAKER_05 44:35

This was in grad school. We were called the Strange Bad Fellows. You can find us on um SoundCloud. Um my god, I'm definitely looking at it. And uh, but Kaya lives in Australia, and so it was difficult to continue making music, so that's why we started writing. So I love that. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

And they're still out in Australia now and based in Melbourne at the moment.

SPEAKER_05 44:53

Yeah. Oh my god. Wow, that's very cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Have you ever done stand up comedy?

SPEAKER_05 44:59

Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Why? I'll ask why.

SPEAKER_05 45:03

I I just think it's the it's the hardest, most terrifying performing art.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Yeah. It is. I tried it once and it's really it's so nerve-wracking to be up there on your own. Because like if you bomb or if you're just like you get lost, you're good. You're lost.

SPEAKER_05 45:22

Although I will say, Mae Martin, I saw them perform last week, and and they brought a whole new meeting to not all who wander are lost in a stand-up set. I mean, they like brought us every which way around and back through who knows where.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

But it all came together.

SPEAKER_05 45:38

And it all came together, and it seemed like maybe there was a plan and also no plan. And it was, they're just genius.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

I love that. Yeah. Do you speak more than one language?

SPEAKER_05 45:47

No.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Do you know how to code?

unknown 45:50

No.

SPEAKER_05 45:51

That's the same question, though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

You know, it kind of is. Actually, yeah. Depending on your answer. I mean, coding is absolutely its own language. Um, that's funny. Are your brothers and sisters annoying?

SPEAKER_05 46:04

Yes. Love you. Um, because they're my brothers. Yes. Do you just have brothers? I just have two little brothers. Two little brothers. Little brothers. I mean, come on. You have to. If you're a little are you a little brother?

SPEAKER_01 46:17

I am a little brother. You have to be annoying, right? It's it's like on the tin. You gotta do it. Yeah, it's in it's inherent, it's a dominant trait. That's right. That's right. Um Do your parents ever embarrass you? Yes. Do you have a favorite dinosaur?

SPEAKER_05 46:30

Ooh. I mean, Sarah, the triceratops from Land Before Time. Oh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Very specific. Okay, then let me ask you why. Why Sarah from The Land Before Time?

SPEAKER_05 46:45

Like, yeah, she just got this little personality. She kind of reminds me of my dog who's a French bulldog.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

Oh my god, I love it.

SPEAKER_05 46:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

We'll end round two on that one. Sarah the baddie. Um, all right, round three. We ready? Yes. This is where we get these are existential.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

This is where you get a little crazy. These are less yes and no. These will probably just prompt discussion.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Great.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Would you want to be a millionaire if it meant you never found true love?

SPEAKER_03 47:16

No.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

Let me let me let me ask that one again, actually.

SPEAKER_05 47:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Would you want to be a billionaire if it meant you would never find true love?

SPEAKER_05 47:25

Definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

You're doubling down even then.

SPEAKER_05 47:29

I would think about the millionaire thing. I would definitely not want to be a billionaire.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

I know. It's like, what's the point?

SPEAKER_05 47:33

Too much responsibility and and no ethics. No, no, I mean maybe like I guess you could argue about like if I had that money and then I could give it away in in good ways, maybe. Sure, sure. Like using it to funds. Self-sacrificial for my taste.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

I totally I hear that.

unknown 47:49

God.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

There's just no excuse for it anymore.

SPEAKER_05 47:51

Oh god, no. Let's get rid of them. That's my point. Nobody should be. No, that's that's my feeling too.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

There is absolutely no justifying the thing. And we need way more love. So I'm on team love. Absolutely right now. Do you think justice really exists?

SPEAKER_05 48:06

Yeah. Yes, I do. Is it served often? No. Um but I I think I I do think um we have we have the concept of it for a reason. And um many of us have an aligned sense of of what is uh what is right, what is good. And when when we work together and we work with systems that work, um we can see that to fruition. It does I again, I don't think it happens very often, but I do think it happens.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

I think too, like, I agree. I I think too sometimes the notion of justice and karma are sometimes conflated with each other. And it's like I think it's I've been watching a lot of documentaries recently. Cool, yes. I'm currently watching The Vow, and I'm before that. The Vow is about the Nexium, okay, which was this like funnily enough, sort of a team-building leadership conference company uh that was like taking place, no joke, like very close to where I grew up. Um but it turned into this whole sex cult. Whoa. Um, and there's a lot of like it it it's nuts. That one and Wild Wild Country.

SPEAKER_05 49:27

Okay, so you're you're into cult documentaries.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

I I am now, I because I'm really getting into them now. And yeah, if you want to watch an amazing documentary, Wild Wild Country, we'll prove to you everything we'll we'll show to you what is possible in America.

SPEAKER_05 49:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Good and bad.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Um where was I going with this? Justice. Yes. So in any way, uh, in the vow, I one someone said something that like kind of hit me, which was like, you you have to make justice. Justice isn't like a guarantee. Like if something bad happens, there's no guarantee that like that that like some sort of karma will come back around to level the playing field. Um, it's like, no, you have to actively seek justice and make justice in order for bad actors to be held accountable. It's like, oh, that person's a piece of shit, they'll get what's coming to them. It's like, no, you have to give them what's coming to them.

SPEAKER_05 50:17

Well, and we're kind of back to the subjective objective thing again, right? Like, I don't think nature gives a shit about our concept of justice because it's a it's a conceit that is agreed upon. Yeah right. Like I personally, I don't think that there is how do I want to phrase this? That we we as human beings, this idea of morality is a human concept.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:39

I th I don't think that makes it not real. I just think that other beings on this planet are not preoccupied with this idea of right and wrong and justice. Yeah. Now, I don't have enough science to say that in my in my brain. Because I do feel like there are there are species that do I do know that there are species of monkeys in particular that will ostracize certain members of the pack for bad behavior. Feel they've done something wrong for dangerous bad behavior. But they're so they're socialist creatures like we are. So they do have this conceit of justice.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:20

But I don't think that's a that's an inherently natural thing of this earth or something like that. I mean, I do I do also think though, like life persists. So like if if goodness and growth in life, if goodness is growth in life, then maybe there is some inherent sense of morality and and justice. Because like are you watching Paradise?

SPEAKER_01 51:41

No, but I should.

SPEAKER_05 51:42

Oh my god. Um yeah, we're really interiming about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

And why are you alone?

SPEAKER_05 51:46

This show is I've been having a lot of conversations about this with folks. This show is post-apocalyptic. There are elements that could appear dystopian, but I do think it's a utopian show. Interesting. Because there's inherent messages of hope. Yeah. Well, yeah, but that title's maybe a little subversive. Um there's this inherent message of hope, and it is that despite our attempts to control us as a human species, the earth will continue on. Yeah. And maybe even our species will continue on, but in ways that are not in our control.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:21

And I I worked on this amazing series by Gabrielle Korn. Um The Shutouts was the book I narrated. The book before it is called Yours for the Taking. Also questioning this idea of what is like hope and and life look like after we destroy everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so I think that there is a natural sense of hope, and if hope and goodness, and if that is growth, and if that is justice, then maybe yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Yeah. I don't know. Great answers. Great stuff. We'll do one more. One last one. If you found out the world was ending in 30 minutes, do you know what you would do in that half hour?

SPEAKER_05 53:00

Oh, no, I don't think I do.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

It's quite a short amount of time. Yeah. Especially if you found out right now. Yeah. I'd be like, oh God, Gail, I'm so sorry. Sorry, the last thing you did on this earth was come on my podcast. I'm sure you'd rather spend it with family or people you haven't known for only an hour. No, it was this. It was to be on this podcast. Okay, good. Perfect. Great.

SPEAKER_05 53:24

Yeah. Uh, you know, that that is a really I think I would I think I would, if I could work it out in real time. I think I would want to be in nature with the people and creatures I love the most.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Yeah. You just run to Central Park?

SPEAKER_05 53:43

Yeah. I just frolic in the park.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

That's not a bad answer.

SPEAKER_05 53:47

Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

That's a great answer, actually. I might do the same.

SPEAKER_05 53:49

Join us.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Calling my girlfriend, being like, meet meet me and Gail at the park. We need to have a good time. We have 30 minutes. Let's go. Central Park, the one in the middle. On that note, then, Gail. That's the end of Yes, No, Sometimes Why.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

And we're at the end of the show.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

This was so fun, Gail. This is so fun. This was such a great time. I'm so glad we finally got to get to know each other.

SPEAKER_03 54:12

Yes, likewise.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Um anything you'd like to plug? Like anything you're working on or coming out in the near future or what have you?

SPEAKER_05 54:21

Um, stay tuned. I can't talk about things yet. Okay. They're gonna be very exciting. And we're we're very thrilled about them. So you can follow along on social media for now. I'm I'm always playing with getting rid of all of it, which I really like.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Trust me, I I delete Instagram. I haven't been on Facebook in a long time. Good for you. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_05 54:41

Yeah, you're not missing anything.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

I only go on like maybe once or twice a year now. That is fantastic. I don't miss it either. Instagram is another thing though.

SPEAKER_05 54:50

Yeah, same. Likewise.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Highly more addictive. Yeah, very much so. In a bad way.

SPEAKER_05 54:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Um, but uh But that's where I'll talk about the things. Oh, great. So so on Instagram?

SPEAKER_05 54:59

My handles at G-R-S-H-A-L-A-N, which is my last name. There you go. Um you know what I will plug? What? Here we go. Go for it. Um I got an opportunity to work on a fantastic, unique audiobook at the top of this year.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_05 55:13

Um, that I'm very excited about. It's called Wait for Me by Amy Joe Burns. Okay. And it is the story of um a young woman in the 90s who's a folk musician, sort of discovering herself and has a mysterious missing part of her past, and a woman, uh a country folk star in the 70s who is um also full, her full story is full of mystery, and they kind of intertwine. And the the audition is the first audition I ever had that had songs for an audiobook.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_05 55:46

And then it slowly went from two original songs that the author had written um to an entire score for the piece, or uh yes, I I would say like it's not it's not scored, it's um there are snippets of songs that are woven into the audiobook, and there's music throughout some of it underneath.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

But that's kind of atypical for audiobooks, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:07

And and it's uh I think it's becoming more the people are exploring what is possible in audiobooks now in a way that's very exciting to me. Um, but yeah, we had Mark Sanderlin, who's an incredible narrator, but he's also a composer, a ranger, and he was a musical director. He basically took all these lyrics and the context of the story and what he knew about music from that time and wrote like I don't know, maybe 25, 30 original like snippets of songs. Amazing. And then so he he's a singer in it, and I sing, and the amazing Patty Murin is also a narrator and singer in the audiobook. And it's just yeah, it was like nothing I've ever done before. It was so much fun, and I hope it's like a lot of things that we'll do in the future.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

So oh my god, that's so cool. Is that out now? It's out now. What's it called again?

SPEAKER_05 56:49

It's called Wait for Me by Amy Joe Burns. It's it's gotten some good, good publicity. It was like uh um today's show, uh Jenna's book club pick. So it's been promoted up the wazoo, but I'm also very proud of it.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

So that is so cool. I'm definitely gonna listen to that. That's so cool. Um, well, thank you so much again, Gail, for coming on. This was so much fun.

SPEAKER_04 57:09

Thank you. I had a great time.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

All right, y'all. That's this week's episode of the Working Class Acts podcast. We'll see you next week.

unknown 57:17

Bye.

SPEAKER_03 57:19

Goodbye now.