Working Class Acts
Candid conversations with working class actors navigating the entertainment industry.
Working Class Acts
Jacob Orr
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On this week's episode I sit down with the ever-talented and ever-honest, Jacob Orr. We discuss everything from the production fluctuations of Broadway to how to ask audiences a question through a play.
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This is the theater game. Tree or stolid. Tree or style. You may begin.
SPEAKER_02Tree or stolid. Tree. Tree or a bicycle. Damn. Already off to a incredible story.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna say bicycle. Um for a couple reasons.
SPEAKER_02Can are are these physical objects, or can this be like the feeling of being an animal? Maybe uh is it a noun or or is it you know?
SPEAKER_01It could I take I I typically say noun, person, place, or thing. But it could it can be anything.
SPEAKER_02Okay, but it's an un. You've just given it in a way that it's an. So you said bicycle. I did say bicycle. Bicycle.
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess mine isn't it's technically I love that. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. It's a noun. Bicycle. I don't know why I question that.
SPEAKER_02Do you know what the word is? I've actually forgotten. Bicycle or dog. Bicycle. Okay. That's huge. Yeah. So it's not an alive thing. Bicycle or education. I'm gonna say education. Okay. Education or a framed photo of your family.
SPEAKER_01Um I don't know why I found that so funny. You know, you're a funny family. Uh I'm gonna stick with education. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Education or your best friend. Not your best friend, but like the general. The idea of a best friend. Uh I'm still gonna say education. That's a real person I remembered as as soon as I said it. Uh education or uh your favorite song? Education. Okay. Education or uh the physical building of NYU Tish. Ooh, the physical building of NYU Tish. The physical building of NYU Tish or the fifth floor.
SPEAKER_01I'll say the fifth floor.
SPEAKER_02Okay, we're honing in. Uh the fifth floor or the two lockers that we shared that were right next to each other when we were both going NYU.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god. Oh, it's not that, but fifth floor. Okay. Um, I'll say fifth floor still. Okay. Uh see, there's so much interpretation. Exactly. The fifth floor or a torture chamber. Hmm. Depends on how you see it. I was gonna say not dissimilar to something. I'm gonna say fifth floor still.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Um not dissimilar. Okay, so it's probably art based. So education, uh, a Broadway play. And or a Broadway play. Fifth floor. Okay. Fifth floor or a black box theater.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna give it to you. Is that it? It's theater. Okay. Black box theater. Okay, but there you go. You said it.
SPEAKER_03I love it.
SPEAKER_01He did it, everybody. I'm really good at this game. Yeah. We should just do this in the next step. Welcome to Working Class Acts. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Working Class Acts podcast. I'm your host John Medalone. I am joined today by such a sweet, lovely, talented human being. He stands at six foot four. He is a cook. He is an actor, he is a lover of the arts. He was in the play Punch last year at MTC. He is an alum of the NYU grad acting program, and that is where we met. I'm here with Jacob Orr. Hi, John. Hey, buddy. It's good to see you. It's good to see you too. For real. We saw each other last year for uh that was last year, right?
SPEAKER_02A reading?
SPEAKER_01Oh, was that last year? No.
SPEAKER_02I think it was. Might have been two years ago. Was it really? I know. Jesus. But it was for, yeah, a reading of a new play. Um, and there was a lot of NYU. Yeah, a lot of NY. It was a lot of people. It was like 20 people or something.
SPEAKER_01No, not 20 people, maybe 15. But it was a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. But it's good to see you. Good to see you too.
SPEAKER_02Well, you were just out of town for another job, weren't you? Recently? I was outside Philly at this theater I've worked at called People's Light a few times doing 12th night. People's Light, 12th night. Exactly. And if you want a full circle moment, please. I was playing Sir Andrew, obviously. Agu cheek. And that's the first role I ever played as an actor, my freshman year of high school. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wait, take us back. Take us back. You were born. Oh, I didn't say this before. You were born in Oregon. Portland, Oregon.
SPEAKER_02Portland, Oregon. Yeah. Did you like Portland? I love Portland. Yeah. I it's funny, I I think I never felt that much like an Oregonian living there because I wasn't kind of as crunchy and nature-y as people I grew up around. But then moving to New York nine years ago, like the Oregon in me was like a good one. So now I'm incredibly Oregonian. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and when I go home, it's like just the best. Yeah. I was gonna say, it didn't, I I don't recall you being from Oregon. So when you said that, I was like, is that true?
SPEAKER_02No, yeah. Like, like, like I wasn't like smoking weed, I wasn't like wearing Birkin stocks and stuff. Now I'm doing uh both of those things, but you know, at the time, no. Um but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I love it, I love it. Uh so when did you catch the proverbial bug, as it were?
SPEAKER_02For acting.
SPEAKER_01When did you start yeah, for acting?
SPEAKER_02Um, I was a dancer as a kid. Oh, really? Yeah. I went to uh an arts school as a as a young, young kid, and they had uh an incredible program. There's this amazing teacher named Keith Goodman, who unfortunately has passed away. Um, and he ran a program called Boys Dance. Boys Dance. So for like first through fifth graders, it was an after-school program where it was an all-boys dance class kind of company. Um, and I just really loved it. I think I was a very energetic child, and so I'm sure it was good to kind of move my body a lot. Um, but I I was a dancer, and then I went to a middle school where instead of PE, we had dance. It was called Da Vinci Arts Middle School.
SPEAKER_01You could choose PE or dance.
SPEAKER_02Oh, there's j- Oh, there you go. And where I met Art Leah Zimmer, who was in my class. We met when we were in middle school. What? Insane. Um, but so I was a dancer. I mean, that's what I did was I was a dancer. Yeah. And then I got to high school and I still danced a little, but around 14 is when the decision becomes, are you gonna dance or are you gonna stop? Like there's no, it's not like that casually. It's just that's it.
SPEAKER_01Um and I decided to stop. Was there a reason? Like, did you feel like you're you you had uh inspiration to go and try other arts, or was it just like So I always give my brother credit.
SPEAKER_02My brother found acting when my brother's four years older, and we went to the same high school, not at the same time he graduated, but he had done theater in middle school. Yeah, he that's how he found it. And so the theater department at my high school was you know a not a super affluent high school, but just like a very dedicated, cool theater department, a great teacher. Um, and so I I think yeah, I there wasn't a dance program or anything at the school, and I also think I was starting to grow wary of like the kind of expressionlessness I felt like I was seeing in dance. Yeah, I'm now dating a dancer, yeah, and I know that that is not true, but I think 14 year old You were just doing it wrong. Right. I was doing that. Um but I think 14-year-old me, I think like I was yearning for a bit more storytelling, is probably um, and so I it was I got to high school, had taken a couple of dance classes with my old teachers, and then just thought, I don't know anymore. Yeah, but my brother had loved the theater department, and it was fun, you know, going, I had grown up watching him do plays at this high school. So the the like juniors and seniors, I was like, you're gods. Yeah, yeah. I saw you when I was 12. Yeah. Um and I was 12. You're like 30. Um, but I was too afraid to audition. So the first thing I ever did with theater was I ran crew, which I like, I I think is a very informative part of who I am as an artist. Yeah. Truly. Oh, definitely. That that I started doing this from the backstage side. I then quickly started acting, and then that was kind of that was the bug was 12th night and playing Sir Andrew. But wow, I think that Patton Oswald always talks about finding stand-up first because he loved the hang. And like I think there is truth in that for me that like I just fell in love with the people and the community and the group and the camaraderie, and and then I just I love that as a concept.
SPEAKER_01You love the hang. That's so true. Like, there is a that just like brought me back to high school. You've been saying that, like, all the times you're just like hanging out with friends between like rehearsing or not or not.
SPEAKER_02Seminal life events that happen to me in the theater room. Yeah, like both uh PG and R-rated, you know what I mean? Like, so my whole life was doing that. Totally. And like, I think healthily my life now is a lot of things. It's not just that, but I do think that like I say this a lot that like every time I'm doing a professional show, I have a moment, and then usually happens a lot, but I have a moment where I'm like, I'm getting away with something. Like, they're paying me to do they don't they know I'm gonna do that. Oh, I have that moment.
SPEAKER_01I don't I don't think about it in that way, but I I remember this one moment I did like this was years ago. I did a Panera Bread commercial. Hey, Panera Bread. If you want to hire me again, I'll eat that mac and cheese all day. Would you? I mean, I'm a Panera hater, I have to say. I don't want it anymore after that shoot because I ate so goddamn much of it. Sorry, Panera Bread. I am sorry. This was years ago, so I can say this. Yeah. Um but I do remember it was like a fun little uh it was a fun shoot because it was like kind of Wes Anderson-y in that it was like it was very like um choreographed and like very like profiled shots and stuff like that, and like very specific. And I just remember there was a moment where like I'm laying in a fake bed. A fake bed. It was a real bed. Right. Not in the room, but yes. And I remember just laying there looking up at the lights and going, God, I'm the luckiest motherfucker in the world. What are we doing? What are we? I'm getting paid a lot of money today to just act up goof brawl.
SPEAKER_02I I have a the a guy who I just did 12th night with who I've worked with a bunch, Kevin Bergen, who's a great thilly actor, wonderful guy. He he I will always I never forget he always, you know, tech is hard, things get rough, yeah, people's moods get whatever. And and the moments I've seen Kevin get frustrated, he'll then look in the mirror and he'll go, This beat's working at Walmart.
SPEAKER_01And then that will like save him. I have to tell myself that every time I'm in my my voiceover booth when I'm doing an audiobook and I'm feeling like just lethargic or whatever, I'm like, this is better than catering. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Hey, you're talking to somebody who caters.
SPEAKER_01So my main side dude. That's one of mine as well. And I'm like, I'm slowly inching out of it. Okay. Slowly with some of these audio. I I I booked five audiobooks this month. So I was like feeling good about it and the momentum. But that's great. But yeah, it's it's like you like this more than the other stuff. Right, right now. But that's important, especially. It is an important thing. Because it is also a job at the end of the day, too.
SPEAKER_02And and I think that like the more successful you get, and success, I think, for an actor especially, like, it's so vitally important that you define what success is for you. Because the world's gonna tell you it's fame and money. And like for very few of us is that the case. But like, if success means, which I think it can mean, like like we were talking about earlier, like m a lot of your nut, as it were, being through Excuse me? Sorry, let me explain what that means. You're not meaning you're you're gross, your income. Um my nut. If if success means you're making most of your money doing it. Yes. Rather than doing some sidekick, you're nut, as it were. Um You are so from Portland, you disgusting monster. But but but like it can be easy to lose sight of that when like the irony being, the more you're doing it, the more it can feel normal. Yeah. Like that is both natural and good, I think. I think so. And I think it's important to like re have ways to like rejuvenate that excitement in yourself. Yeah. Of like, I'm doing this because I got the bug when I was 15. Yeah. And I like the idea of doing something else to me is like cuckoo bananas. I can't think of anything else I would rather do. And there's stuff I would love to do. I I have many interests, I'd love to do a lot of things, but like I I feel like every year I'm 30 now, and every year that I, you know, every year I I feel like more people I know totally naturally are start having priorities above doing this. Yeah. Whether it's financial stability or the ability to, you know, all this kind of stuff. And and I always check in with myself. I'm like, okay, is that true for you now? And every year so far, then like, nah, I just want to keep doing this. Yeah. Yeah. And being poor.
SPEAKER_01No, I dude, I'm the same way. I'm like, if I'm gonna get rich, it's gonna be doing this. Yeah, why not? Why not? It's like, would I rather do I've always work in tech? Work in tech. No, thank you. I always think of that um there's a great Alfred Molina interview where he starts talking about his dad and he says, God, oh god, it's it's gonna get me choked up because he's talking about like he was working a job that he didn't like, but he was making a lot of money. Sure. And then he was offered a role in a play that he really wanted to do, and was being offered some other promotion or something like that, and so he decided, he's like, I'm gonna do the play, and his dad was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? He's like, I I want to do this play. He's like, It's more hours, it's less pay. What why would you do that? Right. He's like, Because I love it.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And he was like, I don't think he ever got it. I understood that. And you could see it in the way it's look it up. You if just Alfred Molina, father video, you'll find it immediately. Right. Um, but it's very, very powerful and moving. But it is this there is something in that that I think a lot of like artists uh grapple with. The notion of just like, I uh wealth is not enough for me to let go of the thing that I love.
SPEAKER_02But it it is a hard every year that goes by, it's harder. I mean, we are absolutely like neck deep in late stage capitalism. Oh my god. You know, without getting too political. No, do it. I don't know. You know, in the podcast in the hellscape we're living in, you know, it is becoming it can be a harder and harder equation to to to be like, uh, how am I gonna survive? Especially in the city, which is so expensive. Yeah. Um, and like I I have a lot of gratitude, kind of in that same way, for my parents who are both teachers, and and I mean, my parents just the only messaging they've ever given me was like, just do what you want to do. Yeah, like it's just not worth it to do something else. Yeah. And I think like seeing them, you know, I think that they love a lot of their job, and of course, like any job, there's stuff you don't love, but like they both love working with students, like in different ways, but that that is what brought them brings them joy. Um, and for me, it's like it is the collaboration of creating something and then sharing it with people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, with people who choose to come and be a part of the community as well, which is like not an easy thing to like do. Like that I think that's the hardest part of any theatrical endeavor is like just making sure that an audience shows up because that's where the money is, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_02You know, like Yes. Uh uh Anne Washburn, do you know the player Anne Washburn? Sure, Mr. Burns and stuff. She did this thing a couple years ago at Soho Burn. I love that play.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god, you guys did such a fucking fantastic production of. You were so, so good in that, man. So fun.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much. Uh, she did this thing at Soho Rep when they were closing their space called Murder Room, which was basically this like interactive exhibit where you could come in and it was like her deconstruction of American theater about like where she thought it was going, what was the problem with it? It was really interesting, and she was there. Um, and so I remember chatting with her, and I said to her, I was like, Wow, I know so many actors, theater artists who have so much energy to do this, yeah. But we find it it it feels so hard to like get people together to create stuff. And I was kind of asking her, you know, what are your thoughts? What are your and I really appreciated this. She was like, Well, it's really worth acknowledging that like 25 years ago, everyone's rent was $400. So you could work two shifts at a cafe and then spend the rest of your time doing shit for free. Yep. Because you could afford that. And now not only, and this is what I feel all the time, not only do you have to work a lot to make your nut, um, not only do you have to do that, but like I feel really bad asking my friends to do stuff for free. Yeah. Because I'm like, your time is worth so much now. Yeah. You know? Um, so I totally hear what you're saying. I and I said that I at this talk back we were doing uh of this show I just did, which you know, very grateful to do it. It wasn't necessarily in every aspect my favorite production of a play. And and I remember saying to the director at some point, like when we were talking about a choice in a moment, I I said, my allegiance is to the audience, always. Yeah, always. And and we were doing a talk back, and someone asked something along those lines, and I remember saying, like, it has never been a more difficult proposition for people to spend their money to come see theater. And so, like, the least I can do is sh give them everything I have when I'm out there. They're like spending money to come here, money that they worked really hard for. Maybe they're spending even more with a baby or whatever, you know, kind of the stereotype, but like the best I can do is is make that worth their while.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. It's interesting because when when you say that, like the people who are coming to the theater now, are I I my my mind immediately went to like the past couple years of like Broadway and where uh how it shifted a lot in who it's casting with celebrities, but also who the audience members are. Right. Because I think producers do recognize which audiences have money and which don't, and how much that is affecting what gets produced, what doesn't get produced. We see a lot of I say this all the time, I'm a broken record about it, but I do think it is worth constantly bringing up because it sooner or later this is gonna break or stop or change in a way that's like if we're constantly producing things that only adhere to one generation that has money, like how are you setting up the future of theater for ne the next audiences if those audience members aren't afforded? Can't afford to go see it.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I remember in in in Portland when I was every every kid got a free if you went to a public high school, you got a free bus pass on four years for the public bus system. Wow. And I remember there was a lot of I mean, Portland is an incredibly white city. I always joke Portland's a city where white families price black families out of their homes and then put a Black Lives Matter sign in their yard. Oh my god. Um and there was a lot of talk right before I left about like, you know, they would do dream girls at the expense of theater where and it was just like they were like this is and it was nothing, you know what I mean? It was still for the white audio, these older white folks. And there was a lot of talk about how do we get black young black folks to come see theater. And I I I certainly didn't come up with this, but someone was like, in the same way that you get a bus pass, if you're a public high school student, you should get a every high school student should get a free ticket. Absolutely. Just by having a and that's I think about the same with Broadway. It's like you're not gonna lose money, these kids aren't gonna see it no matter what. Yeah. So if you give it to them for free, that's not taking away money they're gonna spend on a Broadway show. But like, if you want to make, like you're saying, a new generation of theater makers and theater patrons, yeah, you have to get them in early. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the great thing about New York is that there's so much incredible theater happening that isn't super expensive, yeah. Um, prohibitively expensive, but you know, Broadway's Broadway. Uh in the same way that Hollywood is Hollywood. Like, there's so many great small budget indie movies happening where there's huge wells of talent, but like people want to go to AMC. You know, they want to go sit down and look at it.
SPEAKER_01I go to AMC all the time. I'm on A-list. But that's the thing. That they at least have something that is a little A-list. Something fucking fantastic. Oh my god, are you really? I know. Oh my god. Remember that summer movie passed when it was like $10? I got in way too late. Oh, that's I got in way too late. I was so fucking pissed.
SPEAKER_02That summer, it was like we all knew this was gonna fail.
SPEAKER_01So while it works, told me the business model, I went, that will never last, but I will buy it for now because so many movies.
SPEAKER_02I was like no way that I saw so many movies I definitely wouldn't have seen. And they were great. Yeah, exactly. But I was like, this is free for me to see this, so why wouldn't I go see this movie? Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's not technically free, but it's like it's at a price that you can afford.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, I've seen nine movies a month and it's twenty dollars for a month of movies. That's like what's like two dollars, two dollars and ten cents or something. Like movies are so expensive, but like at this point, a twenty dollar movie ticket for three hours of entertainment in New York, that's like a good bank buck. Yeah, you know? Yeah, totally. A three hundred dollar theater ticket at at minimum is not.
SPEAKER_01This comes back to our conversation about capitalism, which was like last year's Broadway gross was like the highest in history, but it was the least attended. Yeah. So it's like Well, it's like you gotta adjust gross.
SPEAKER_02It's like just everything's more expensive now. So like sure you're making more money, but what is that actually? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm did you ever read the first But also think about it this way if it's the highest grossing but the least attended, that actually means you've lost money. You failed, yeah. You did fail. Because if more people attended, they would have put yeah you would have had people buying more merchandise, more drinks, more stuff like that. Coming back. Coming back. Well, right.
SPEAKER_02And also like and also like that that beautiful generation of theater patrons. Like, like working regionally, you see them. There are these great like septigenarians who like love theater and will go to it. Yeah. They are all getting old. And there's not really another new class coming up to take that spot because it's so prohibitively expensive. Did you ever read The Fervent Years by Willie? It sounds familiar, but I've never read it. It's not the group theater, and it's kind of the creation of off-Broadway Theater. And and I don't totally know if I agree with this, but one of his suppositions is like theater. Who? Sorry. The author whose name I sh cannot remember in the case. I'm like desperately looking for you. I'm like, let me look it on my phone.
SPEAKER_01And my as my phone is over there.
SPEAKER_02Um but he says he's and again, I don't totally necessarily agree with this 100%, but he's like, theater should not be a profitable medium. Because like if theater is doing what theater should, it should be divisive. It shouldn't be crowd-pleasing in the way that uh a Marvel movie is. And God bless a Marvel movie. I'm not in no way shitting on that. And and also some theater should, you know, like freaking what's a fun Hades Town is incredible and has been running for years. I would say it's probably the last great, it's the it's the last great original musical, I would say, um, on Broadway. Um but there's something about that that I agree with.
SPEAKER_01Really, you didn't like Margaritaville?
SPEAKER_02Didn't see it. Can't say it. Who did? That flew by. Um but like that that I like that idea that like that like we shouldn't be making theater because we're trying to make back our investment. We should be making it because it feels urgent and it feels important and we have a story to tell. Um it's uh frankly, it's the reason why like not to bring up punch this early in the conversation. But like, A, I was really proud of Punch because there weren't movie stars in it. You know what I mean? It wasn't a show that was being funded on the back of someone's celebrity. But B, it was a really interesting, important, empathetic, human piece of writing. Yeah. That like whether or not you loved it, it was a show that was about something, yeah, and it was and it was about something in this moment in time where like because of the internet, because of uh politics, like it is harder and harder to have empathy for like people whose experiences you do not identify with. Um and I'm like, isn't that kind of what theater's about? Like the the alchemy of sitting in a room with people doing it is about that exchange of energy. Yeah. And so if you're sitting in a room thinking, I just spent a thousand dollars for this ticket, I better feel like I just had the best sex of my life or else it wasn't worth it.
SPEAKER_00That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, there's I I I don't care who anyone is, yeah, no one's performance is worth a thousand dollars. No. I don't give a shit if it's Taylor Swift to whoever, no one is performing at $1,000 a seat. I agree. No one. Um but that just reminded me of actually the author right over there, uh, James Shapiro, The Year of Lear. Um I was listening to a podcast that he was on, because I'm doing like research just like theater pieces of like different like theater histories. And one of them I'm doing is on the Federal Theater Project. And he was talking about the Federal Theater Project, and it's the one of the only uh it is the only government subsided theater programs that has ever existed uh in the country. Uh, and it only lasted like I think three, four years in this country. Yeah. Uh headed by Halle Flanagan. Um, and uh anyway, I say all this because in the podcast he said something. I'm not sure if he was quoting someone or if he was just paraphrasing something or if he made it up, but he was saying every thriving democracy needs a good theater. And if you have a thriving theater, you have a good democracy. Well, this just in. I don't think we're living in a thriving democracy for a lot of people. And that's the thing. And that's what kills me about like all the commercial theater that we have right now, because I'm just like, it's just a wash of neutrality. Right. And I'm like, it's boring. But it's whatever happened to opinions in a pla like I can't stand now when I hear people go, Oh, they were just trying to jam their uh a message down our throats. I'm like, that's a story. Yes, all stories have been because this is why I You can get the fuck out of here, Jacob.
SPEAKER_02Yet another reason I liked Punch was I I think I love British writers. I love them, I love them. Because I do think what British writers do really well in general is they are really comfortable with asking really uh thought-provoking, sometimes uncomfortable questions and not answering them. And I think American theatre tends to try to answer them, tell you what you should take from this. Sure. This is the message. Fair enough. And British plays in general, I don't think they want a message, they want you to think. Yeah. So like I remember, and going to your point about you know, federally funded arts, when I studied abroad in London when I was an undergrad, um, I saw so much theater because you could rush a show for like 30 pounds. Um I mean, that's what the National Theatre in England is. And so, like, I saw the Jennifer Haley play, The Nether. Do you know that play? No. It's so good. You gotta read it. But I I didn't, I was just like, I it's it's 1:30 and I got nothing to do. This play is about to go on, I'll see it. And that show rocked my socks off. Yeah. And not because I came out feeling necessarily uh hopeful about humanity, but like it was so um, I felt so implicated as an audience member. And I felt so stimulated, and I didn't feel like I came out with a neat little bow on what I was supposed to think. I'm still thinking about that play. Yeah, 15 years later. It hasn't been 15 years, that was bad math. But I I just think that there is also a difference between like inviting an audience to to think about things and and uh uh spoon feeding an audience what you want them to feel. Sure. You know?
SPEAKER_01I feel that. I underst I I to I agree with that. Um I think maybe I'm so reticent or I'm just so vitriolic towards some of this stuff because I feel like they're not even asking questions. Oh, yeah, totally. They're just doing it and and I'm like, can we shade rather have someone speak or feed me something than just the general wash of just like Can we shade current Broadway shows on this podcast?
SPEAKER_02Oh fuck yeah. Great. I don't give a shit. I my partner's parents were in town, and they had read the hilarious New York Times article about Dog Day Afternoon, where Stephen Adler Girgis was kicked out of the room because of problems with whatever. And so they were like, This did you hear about this? No. Oh, Stephen Adler Girgis, who wrote the play, was kicked out of the I think it was during previous. Well, adapted, didn't he? Technically, well, it's a screenplay. It's not a play.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know, but he didn't but he didn't write Dog Day Afternoon. He didn't write Dog Day After the original screen. But he wrote the play Dog Day Afternoon. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02And he was Which he took, which he adapted from. Uh article. Yeah, yeah, okay, which was adapted from newspaper article, you sound up yet. But he and they were like, this is crazy, we gotta go see this. And I'll I'll I'll be the first one to say it's really not good. Oh no. I mean, I'm not the first I'm not joking. Everyone said the all the reviews are like this is really bad. It's really badly. And to your point, like it's one of those where I Tessa, my partner, and I came away being like, what were we supposed to think? Think about that. Like, besides John Bernthal's a handsome guy. Yeah. Hey, I'll say it's got John Bernthal and that other guy.
SPEAKER_01And I'll say both amazing actors.
SPEAKER_02Most amazing actors. I don't know if they're doing amazing work in this play. Oh, really? And they're both very handsome. They look very good up there. But I it was, it was like an especially. I mean, also, so many Broadway shows are just adaptations of movies now. Yeah. And I think baseline for that, you have to be like, have you justified making this a play? And I would say I came out of that being like, maybe this one should have just stayed a movie. Like, I don't know, this should have been a play. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah. Well, that always kills me. It's just like, just go watch the movie. Just go watch the movie. Why do you need the theater? It's it's so weird. Like, I did not realize we were gonna go on this tangent for so long. I feel like I haven't asked you any questions. We can go back. We can go back. We can, but I will but I'm liking this a lot. But I'm just like, it's it's so funny to me now. Like, people it's so funny. I'm like really putting this together in my head right now, which is people aren't going to see like movies as much as they used to. They'd rather watch them at home. They're seeing these celebrities here. If they want to go see a show on Broadway, it has to be something they know. So they're adapting stuff that are movies into shows on on Broadway. And then in order to get people butts in seats for these shows, they're casting the people who are in the TV shows and the movies to be on stage.
SPEAKER_02But the funniest part of it all is these shows don't do very well. Like the shows that they're all limited runs. Well, yes, because the shows that do well are the original things, yeah, but that takes seven. I mean, how long was Hamilton in development? Years. Yeah. And and these theaters want to make money now. So, like that show with um Adele Dezim, that's not her name, but Redwood.
SPEAKER_01Redwood. That one was on for like an an afternoon and a half.
SPEAKER_02Well, but it it its first ever showing, thank you. It's first ever, I'm getting excited, and I'm whoo! Its first ever production was like a limited regional run or something, and then it went straight to Broadway. Of course. Because they did not care about developing work. Hades Town was an album, and then it was at the New York Theater Workshop. Like, these things take time. It's hard to do that.
SPEAKER_01Hades Town was at New York Theater Workshop like a decade before it came to Broadway.
SPEAKER_02This just in. It's hard to write good plays. Yeah. It's really hard to write good musicals. Yes. And like, so so the the thing is is that all these theaters, both before COVID, but especially after COVID, they're so desperate to make back the money they lost that like they're like, just do anything. But like the shows that actually they make money are shows that took time.
SPEAKER_01But this is what I'm gonna say to what you guys can move on. Then we can move on. Which is it is really hard. You know, there's that saying anyone can act, few can direct, no one can write. I've never heard that, but I like it. But that's a thing I don't think it's entirely true. I think acting is much harder than I'm a show. At least don't try what we're doing at home, folks. Um so when when you do find someone who can write, it's like gold and it's beautiful. Guess what? There are so many great writers out there. So this idea of like, yeah, it is hard to write a good play, yeah, but there are plenty of people. Why do you think all these students are going to to school to figure out how to write this way? Like, uh, I read like almost every year I go to NYU and have to and read scripts and like help out with like the writing c classes and whatever. And I'm like, there are great writers out here, young great writers. Yeah, it's it's not a matter of I don't think producers care about quality in that respect anymore, which I I hate saying, but I think it's true because I they think about money. And an extended thing, which I've said several times, which is producers are not creatives anymore. Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to say it. And they're they're just money people and they they look for trends because trends bring in money. But to your point about like good writers, it's like it's out there.
SPEAKER_02Well, but plenty, yes, and like again, not to bring up Hamilton again, but like like it's still Lin Memoir Miranda was an established incredible writer when you wrote Hamilton. It still took eight years. Yeah, like that's what I'm saying. It's not like if you're a good writer, you should be able to pull out an incredible play in six months. Like it still takes years of development to do this, yeah, because you need to see it along every stage of the process, no matter how good you are. No one works in a vacuum. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's just I think there's more to be learned about people developing their own taste. Yeah. Because I do think, again, back to the the discussion about what is good and bad theater. It's just like, well, if you're constantly putting out stuff that doesn't ask any form of question or or what have you, and has just a neutral opinion about everything, right? Then you have a whole generation of people who are watching that stuff thinking, oh, the the critics say this is good. So I'll go see it. And they've been paid to say that it's good. Right. Um then everyone's gonna go see it. And then everyone's gonna start absorbing it and going, Well, I was told this is good, so it must be good. Right. The greater good. If you've ever seen Hot Fuzz, yes, the great fucking movie, but it's a similar thing, it's like a form of brainwashing. And I do think that we're at this point now with theater where it's such a wash of neutrality that and nobody wants to get canceled for saying the wrong thing or saying something's bad. What the fuck is being canceled? Like that's why I'm not gonna be able to do it.
SPEAKER_02Being canceled is such a right-wing idea that doesn't fucking exist. I know it's fucking stupid. LCK's still making so much goddamn money. Who gives a fuck?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And but it just like I'm like, we need opinion. We need strong opinion and strong questions.
SPEAKER_02My mom, when I was in grad school, went and saw some Adam Rat play with uh what's the one from Weeds? Uh uh uh Oh, Michelle.
SPEAKER_01No. No. No. Michelle Pfeiffer? No. No, I know who you're talking about because I auditioned for a movie she was in once.
SPEAKER_02Yes, her. She was in some play where she played a teacher and her student, and she and they had an affair. And my mom.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Wait, this David Cromer directed it, I think.
SPEAKER_02Maybe, I don't know. She hated it. Yeah. Because she's a teacher and she was like, this is horrifying. Yeah, yeah. But she kept talking about it. And I was like, Mom, I think it's a good play because you're thinking about it so much.
SPEAKER_01Like, and that's- But here's the thing. I think you cannot like a play and it can still have you thinking stuff.
SPEAKER_02No, that's what I'm saying. I think if you have that strong reaction to it, it's a successful play. Yeah. Because the play's job is not to make you walk away going, that play was awesome, I loved it. But if it's stirring something in you.
SPEAKER_01Well, actually, now that now you're saying this, I I just recently saw the Super Mario Galaxy movie. Yeah, let's go. As a joke. I wasn't with some friends. Dog shit. Did you see the first one? Yes. It was pretty good. No, it wasn't. Okay, yes. It is the second one, it is just a wash of case sequences IP fight. It's just flashing. It really is. Looks beautiful. Don't don't get me wrong, but it is trash, just like the first one. That's fair. And I have a right to say that. This is my podcast. That's true. Go fuck yourself. Um where are we? Oh my god, we have spent so much time on the I don't care though. I actually wish I I should have the show operate more like this. Okay. I feel like. Totally. So uh because normally I just do like a little like character breakdown, a bio of the stuff. Well, we can do that too, but you can fuck it. We can move on to the next one. You can get me started. I'll get going. I'll get going. I think this says more about you than than you know.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, it's funny. I uh as you look up this question, I'll say this. Like, I just again did this production of Twelfth Night that like was really fun and really successful in some ways, and also I think artistically wasn't my favorite thing. Yeah. And and there were moments of real frustration having to do with a myriad of things. And a friend of mine who was out there said this to me, and I I really resonated with it. She was like, I'm being very political, can you tell? Um please, I'll I'll love it. And and she said, um, when you love this thing as much as you do, not doing it well is really hard. Dude. And that's and that's the thing, is it's like, I not only do I love acting, not only do I love like I think as you're saying, like, theater is really important. And so, like, when it's not, I'm none of this is coming from this is all coming from a place of love. And it's the love of being like, this can be the fucking best thing in the world. Absolutely. And so when it's not, when you can smell the consumerism, when you can smell the the business of it all the time, it's really it's it's hard.
SPEAKER_01I I totally feel that. And and uh something I was gonna say going back to what we were saying before, though, um I I have strong opinions about bad stuff too, though. And and like so, I I'm sort of rescinding what I said a moment ago, which is like I actually do think bad things make me question more, but it doesn't make me question themes, it makes me question what they were trying to do. And that and if if I'm sitting in the audience thinking after just watching it and going, wait, what happened? Or during it failed. You fucking failed. And and to give like in a major way.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and to give dog day afternoon its due, uh, a friend of mine happened to be at the same night we were there, and he liked it. And I was like, art is subjective. Like wait, did you see it in previews? I think I saw it the night before it opened, maybe. But like, oh I think it's changed. But like again, if you're getting to the day before opening and you're still like, it's like but like what I I that has been another reminder for me constantly recently, is like, oh, art is subjective. Like there are things that I'm like, there's no way anyone could like this, and people are like, I love that. Or there are things like one battle after another, which I was like, this is an incredible fucking movie. I love it so much. And I knew people who were either hated it, which was one thing, or were kind of lukewarm on it. And I was like, how are you lukewarm on this? You hated.
SPEAKER_01I will say there were people that I hated in it, and I didn't always root for the leads. I mean that maybe sounded terrible. I'm cutting that. I I mean you were Sean Penn bootlicker, get out of here. I mean, well, I he was so uh incredible in that part. Like, holy shit, what a character. Um and maybe that's what it made like I I loved his performance because there were times when I was just like, I don't know how to feel about you.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, you I mean he kind of has an happy ending. Like he dies, but like in his he thinks he succeeded. He does get what he wants. That movie so much. Technically, I love that movie so much. I guess. Um, he thinks he gets what he wants. Yeah, he thinks he gets what he wants. But that's all he cares about anyway, is thinking he's getting it. But that's the thing. Yeah. Because he lives in a world of delusion the entire time. Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's just so interesting. It's so interesting.
SPEAKER_01I will say I did really like that movie. Yeah. It's very good. I really like that movie. Uh, just to save my own ass. Yeah, totally. The big one battle after another fans are gonna come after you for that. No, it was good. I think it was just it was a little, it was different than what I was I think I was expecting it to be. It's very not PTA. Oh no. Like, I think it was the beginning, it was like it was hard to f You know what it was. Yeah. Now that I'm really thinking about it, and I will st I will die on this hill. Yeah. I never believed once when Leonardo DiCaprio would say viva la revolution. Oh, I totally disagree. I'm not a single, not a single moment he said it. I I was like, You're Leonardo DiCaprio. I think I think he was too famous for that part. I I genuinely think that's true. Because I'm I genuinely think that's true.
SPEAKER_02In general, not a Leo lover. Yeah. But I'm loving Leo in his loser era. I love Leo playing washed up losers.
SPEAKER_01I do too. Don't get me wrong.
SPEAKER_02And so what I loved about that movie was I was like, I'm watching a guy who knows his best days are behind him and is like just falling apart. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, we could we don't have to talk about it anymore.
SPEAKER_01I love it so much. It's great. We're gonna move on to the final segment. The final segment? Yeah. Don't worry. The final segment has a we're gonna keep talking. We've been talking. You can choose from deeper questions. Yes, no, and sometimes why. Uh you can do Lipton Classics or you can tell a audition horror story slash beautiful story. You want to do cheaper questions?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course. Okay. We just talked 45 minutes about the state of America.
SPEAKER_01Here we go. Okay. Sing the theme.
SPEAKER_02Ooh, here comes deeper questions. It's getting deep exponentially so.
SPEAKER_01Ooh, that was a good one. Thanks.
SPEAKER_02I don't know why.
SPEAKER_01Well, this is deeper questions, and as the title implies, the questions go deeper. These are potentially personal, political, or professional questions. Uh this is one question chosen at random. Oh, okay. And uh you can answer or not. It's up to you.
SPEAKER_02That'd be funny if I was like too deep.
SPEAKER_01I mean, to I mean, you never know. I never wanna I never wanna cross a line or anything, you know. That's why I put it out there at the beginning. Uh let me see. Choose uh number one through eight.
SPEAKER_02Three. No. Six. Six. Which one's better? Be honest. I don't know. Which one did you say? Three or six.
SPEAKER_01Three or six? Okay, let me see. They're both good.
SPEAKER_02Do you want to read them both and I'll decide? Is that kind of not in the spirit of the game?
SPEAKER_01No, that's totally fine. It's not really a game. Like, uh, why not? There's no reason why I can't I shouldn't do more. I just usually do it at the end. So the first one is how does race play a part in your work? Damn. And the sixth one is what are your thoughts on nepotism in the entertainment industry?
SPEAKER_02Damn. These are both questions that I'm sure other people have really There are some great questions.
SPEAKER_01Great answers to these in the past.
SPEAKER_02Um I'm gonna lightly touch nepotism nepotism. And then talk about race more. Nepotism is interesting. I think they are linked. Nepotism. Okay. A, I think people really only have a problem with nepotism when the person's bad. Like, there's a lot of great nepot babies who are like, that's fine. You're good at acting, so we don't give a shit. Um, which is fair. Yeah. Um also, I think so often what people just want is to somebody to be like, yeah, I had an advantage. And then we go, yeah, you're right. Okay, great. Yeah. What we hate is when people are like, I worked so hard. In fact, it was harder for me. That's when no. We want honesty. Right. We want honesty and all any actor wants. And I also think that like any good act. The reason the world kind of rolls their eyes at this is like that's how business works everywhere. Yeah. Your dad owns a company, he hires you. Like, like you will run the company.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I do audiobooks, and I just read a statistic the other day that really like made me shit my pants because it made me go, oh, okay. Yeah. Totally. That makes sense. Which was um only 20% of hires are gotten through hiring websites.
SPEAKER_00Of course.
SPEAKER_01All others are done through personal reference who you know, family members. 80% of hiring decisions are made that way.
SPEAKER_02Are we calling personal references nepotism?
SPEAKER_01No, no, I'm just saying that like uh uh you know, just you have to have known someone connected to the job.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think the reason it feels particularly frustrating for actors is it it is a real shattering of the idea of a meritocracy, which like I always say get with it, actors. This isn't a meritocracy. Uh we all know great actors who aren't working, we all know bad actors who work a lot. Like, that's just what it is. Yeah. But like the world's not a meritocracy either. So, like, the idea that acting is the last bastion of that is kooky bananas. Like, of course it's not. So, nepotism ultimately I feel kind of nothing towards because I'm like, great, if it happens, I'm not gonna shake my fist at the sky. That being said, I know actors who like are going up all the time against like the same daughters of famous men, and those daughters are getting the parts, that would be really challenging. So, part of it is I recognize like uh I'm not going up against well, whomever. What's Meg Ryan and Dennis Quaid's son?
SPEAKER_01Uh oh he, you know, I've warmed up to him over the years, but I used to be. Not that he's bad, but like that's everything he does. I'm like, I think I could have done that. Jack Quaid. Jack Quaid.
SPEAKER_02Everything Jack Quaid does. I'm like, I could have done that. Yeah. But like similar. I'm not, I'm not in those fucking rooms anyway. So who gives a shit? I would love to see you and the boys. I know, I think it'd be pretty good. I gotta catch up on that show. I don't like the more than ones. Oh, you don't really? It's a first two. It's a little too South Park for me in that, like, it's like, we're gonna skewer everything. And I'm like, okay, fine. I can tell white guys made it. See, there's that spoon feeding thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I'm like, I prefer that over nothing to race. Now, race.
SPEAKER_02I mean, one of the ways race plays a a a big part in my work is that being a gigantic white dude.
SPEAKER_01Can I just say when you when I saw you I'm huge enter, I forgot how tall you are. Everyone forgets how tall I am.
SPEAKER_02And I like it. And straight and white and a dude. And so I think one of the main ways race plays a part in my work is that like I it is an active practice to remind myself that like my experience is not everyone's experience. You know what I mean? In a variety of ways.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, I don't know about you, but like I'm from Portland, Oregon, as I said. And like Portland, Oregon is a deeply white place where like I remember I I studied, uh, I did a summer intensive of Meisner, my senior, my the summer before my senior year of college in New York. And I remember like riding the I was living in Brooklyn and I remember riding the train and being like, I'm the only white person on this train. And it didn't necessarily fill me with any emotion other than that, but it was the realization of like I've never had that experience. Yeah. I've never had and then like getting back to Portland riding the bus and being noticing just noticing yourself in in an environment. Being like, holy smokes. I and I I uh actor we went to I went to school with always said like the the definition of a blind spot is something you cannot see until someone tells you. So I I think people are accountable to their blind spots once they've been made aware of them. Yeah, but you can't really hold someone accountable for something they are blind to because they can't see it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um and so like But can I push back a little bit on this?
SPEAKER_01In that we have we are living in an information era. Yeah. You can look up anything, yes, but you can also look up misinformation. Yes.
SPEAKER_02The information this is we're we're in syndrome. Syndrome was right in The Incredibles. Syndrome! If everyone's super, no one is. And like everyone has access to every piece of information, real or fake, kind of we have access to nothing. Yeah. And and I think no matter how much we're on the internet all the time, like there is nothing, there will never be anything like someone in your life sitting down with you and talking to you and saying, Hey, you're not aware of this, but X. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And me, a person who spends time around you, is observing this in you. It's first hand account. Right. Nothing is nothing is stronger than a firsthand account.
SPEAKER_02Even if it's not personal, just someone you know and love being like, I've been thinking about this, and you're like, Oh, I never thought about it that way. Yeah. That is going to mean so much more to you than reading a post on Reddit being like, oh, they said that thing. You're gonna go, and then you're gonna move on. Yeah. So going to NYU, which was I moved from Portland to New York for school, was also the first time in my life I had spent legitimate time within black community. Yeah, I had black friends in Portland, but they were always like one of the two black people I knew. Yeah. It wasn't, and so like they were experiencing a profound sense of kind of isolation that they probably never expressed to me because I was 19 and didn't know anything about that. And they did not feel like they could express that to me, I'm sure. So coming to NYU, where half of my class was black, not only was I around black folks in such an intimate way, I was I was like, oh, I'm I'm seeing black folks being in communion with one another in a way that I never experienced as a young person.
SPEAKER_01Same. And I I lived in New York, like the state of New York my whole life, and have been living in this city for like 12 years now. I think coming up on 12. I had the same experience. Going to NYU is a hugely informative experience for me in terms of race. Yeah. And having discussions about race. Like we had some really uncomfortable discussions. Of course. And I'm so glad we did because I realized going through it, I was like, oh, I can survive that. There's nothing the the conversations about race, they can't kill you. Right, right. And it's only a benefit.
SPEAKER_02Well, right, and like, and like like um I think the pr again, kind of I would jokingly say now, like the white guy in me, but I mean this earnestly, like I think that the idea that difficult conversations surrounding identity, whatever it is, are things to either be avoided or something you do so that you get through them. I think what I have come to realize in my life in general is like that is an active practice. That like to be in this world in anybody is to is to come up against uncomfortable things with people, you know, and especially in this work, because we are doing a job where you're meeting people really quickly and really intimately, but you don't really know them that well. Yeah. So you might know uh deep parts of their soul, but I I don't know what makes you laugh. I don't know where your lines are. And the the ness what will necessarily happen is boundaries will be pushed, lines will be crossed, and then it's about okay, then what do you do? Yeah. So like the idea, I think like, you know, the like 18-year-old in me who hadn't gone to therapy who was like perfection is attainable and I can do it. Oh, I was the same. Right. And like, and that was that was both like within myself, but also like in my relationship to other people. So like trying, like, I think again, like I think a beginning part of my experience in grad school was being like, I'm gonna be the good white guy. Like, I'm gonna be the white guy who is never the problem.
SPEAKER_01But is that is maybe this is a thing among amongst white men. Like I know this is a thing. Uh uh about the notion of like perfection. I think it is a security thing. There's something white supremacist about it, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think that men, again, I can only speak to white men, but most of the men I know, regardless of their race, uh I think we're raised in a society where usefulness for men is is like that's the goal. And I think it's the reason there is such a real mental health crisis with men, is it's men feeling useless. Yeah. And usefulness is not one's uh purpose, and usefulness is not one's reason of yeah, that is not the reason people exist. But I think that men especially can really struggle with that feeling of like, if I'm useless or even worse, if I'm causing the problem, yeah, fuck, you know? And so like I I I remember my first year, one of my black classmates, she came in one day and her hair was very different than it was the day before. It had been in braids and then it wasn't, and it looked a lot shorter to me. Yeah. And I remember saying, like, oh, did you get a haircut? Yeah. And one of my classmates, Jarvis, God bless him. I also had the distinct privilege of being in class with uh a lot of queer black people, yeah, who I I just felt I learned and and love them so fucking much. But I remember him being like, You're so white. And I remember being like, I don't know what you're talking about. And then another one of my classmates, uh, later that same day touched that classmate's hair.
SPEAKER_00Oh no.
SPEAKER_02And so then this classmate of mine, she brought us both over and kind of sat down, was like, hey, let I want to talk about this really quick. And A, that was not her responsibility to do that. Yeah, but like with most education, I do unfortunately think like the way people learn best is someone doing more work than they need to. Yeah, I agree. And that's like is that such a fair? No. No. Should that be how the world is? No. Is that how it is? I think so.
SPEAKER_01But what's like what we said before the world is not a meritocracy. The world's not a meritocracy and those instances.
SPEAKER_02Well, and unfortunately, do have she made the calculation of like it is worth me expending this effort with these guys who I'm gonna be with for three years to have this conversation now, then kind of brush this aside and risk it escalating in a way that's happening over and over and over. But I remember in that conversation being receptive, as receptive as I could be when I was 21 and confused. But I also remember in my head being like, Well, I just said this thing, and that guy touched your hair.
SPEAKER_01So even in- Then why am I being coupled in with this?
SPEAKER_02Right, like even in that conversation, I was like, I felt myself trying to, again, I don't think I was externalizing it, but I I certainly felt like, well, I'm a degree less racist, you know. Yeah. And I think that like what being in school with them, what going through uh 2020 and all of these, you know, these real moments where it was, I felt like for me, like like opportunities and moments that that it was necessary for me to like do real deep exploration of my relationship with race, was like uh you grow up, I grew up with the idea of racism being like you're a racist and you're bad. It's a it's a like it's a binary. You're racist or you're not. Yeah, yeah. And the reality being, like, I I'm a white person in America. Of course, I racism exists within me. Like, there's no way it doesn't. Yeah. And I think that like that was really important to recognize like like I am not, I will never be able to unlearn the the racist ideology and teaching of this country and this world. Yeah. So instead of trying to achieve, you know, white person perfection, it was like, how do I, how do I continue to to educate and also like be comfortable with the reality that, like you're saying, like, I will slip up. I will say something because I don't know where one person's line is that's not another person's line. You know what I mean? Um, and that's just the reality. And the best I can do is when and if someone has the um courage and space to like say, hey, that thing you said sat with me a little wrong or whatever, to like just shut the fuck up and listen and listen and change. Yeah. Because it's really nice to be really receptive and be a really good listener and sit on your hands. But then if you don't change, yeah, that's then then what's that? And again, it's like the blind spot. If you don't know you did something and then someone alerts you you did something and you don't change, then it's your responsibility. Yeah, you know what I mean? So, like the last thing I'd say about that right now is like one of the great fucking gifts of grad school was like learning how learning uh really profoundly, like what is my responsibility and what's not my responsibility. And and more than that being like how often my impulse might be to like jump in and help, but that is really patriarchal and pretty racist a lot of the times, to be like, I'm gonna fix this for you because I know how to do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and because I know whether I'm conscious of it or not, that my position as a white person in society allots me a certain amount of power. Right. And that I think maybe get certain things done. Right. And it's like, but maybe this is more about how people are perceiving the situation versus who can smooth it out the fastest.
SPEAKER_02So, like, so like when I'm in a show, like the show I just did, like uh the I would say it was probably 40% black actors and 60% white actors, and like I feel deeply comfortable when someone says, Hey, could you help? or hey, could you whatever, being like, yes, and going for it. But also like, I'm not gonna jump in unless someone asks me to. And and I think this is about race, but it's also about patriarchy and like being a big gigantic guy, like, you know, I I know I saw, I saw how the women in my class, I saw how the black folks in my class looked at my white male classmates when they would, you know, step on toes or jump in all the time or or fix it. And I was like, I do not want to be that guy. Yeah, you know what I mean? And like, and like that might not be the greatest motivation, but the truth is like it is it is it has become a lot easier for me to be like, I'm happy to not always have to be the savior. Yeah, I will be the tool that people ask me to be the moment they ask me to be it, but I'm not gonna assume I know what people need. Yeah, I'm not gonna assume I know what yeah, now I feel very differently in white spaces. If I'm around a bunch of white people, I will absolutely be like, you cannot fucking say that. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, because that's my responsibility. Because if no one's gonna there is no one else here.
SPEAKER_01So, like if I have that thought, I'll I'll jump in. It's true. It's there's this great book called White Supremacy and Me by Layla F. Said. She talks about that, which is white solidarity, which is how white people talk to each other about race when they're alone. And that that is actually the space where the most sort of like concretizing, is that the word? Like where you sort of like solidify your your bias because you are essentially going, is that okay to another person who is just as uninformed as you are? Right. Um I hope as two white people having this conversation right now, though, that we're not doing that. I think we're having a pretty open conversation about it.
SPEAKER_02Right. But also it's like, it's like, like, are like frankly, like are you? Was that me doing it really? Frankly, it's like, is your black audience gonna get a lot out of this? Probably not. But like maybe some of your white audience. You know what I mean? Because like and and this is about gender, but I think it's related. I remember I remember my second year of grad school, we like did this whole thing where we split, we would have all school meetings, and we and we and we we we we did one about gender, and so all the women in the school met, and all the men in the school met to kind of like be a space where people could talk. And I think it was Oh wait, yeah, we did something like this too at NYU. Yeah, yeah. And it was just grad acting, but yeah. Oh, okay, yeah. For us, and it was it was it was I think tremendously helpful for the women, of course. And for the men, what became very clear very quickly was like I was one of the people leading with a couple other people. I was like, I am not equipped to talk about these things. Like, because people were saying things that I was like, that's so fucked up. But I'm we've said this was a space where people could talk honestly, blah, blah, blah. But there were some men who were in school, not necessarily my class, who I my first impulse was to be like, ugh, I can't deal with these guys, they're so sexist, they're so gross. Yeah, sure. And then I had the thought, and this is why I think it relates to race, I was like, okay, Jacob, if I don't deal with this, the options are a woman's gonna have to deal with it. Or no one's going to, and then they're never gonna change. And that was a real wake-up call to me of like when people who look like me say things that I find either morally abhorrent or just even ignorant, if I'm not the person to step in to be like, hey, we need to have a conversation about that, it's either never gonna be talked about and they're never gonna change, or the bonus is gonna fall on the person who they are actively being discriminatory against. You know what I mean? Um, and that really was an impactful moment for me. That's great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, Jacob, that's the end of the episode. Um, anything you want to plug? Anything going on right now that you're working on? Um I know you just got off.
SPEAKER_02I'm honestly no, like I the last year was the most I've ever worked as an actor. Really?
SPEAKER_01The last like It's the least I worked.
SPEAKER_02The last like 14 months. Um, and so I'm back in the city and I have nothing lined up, and it's really, really awesome. Good for you. Um my partner who's a dancer is in this incre is about to, they're about to open this incredible dance theater silent disco piece called The Circuit that's gonna be in Dumbo. I think it's gonna be really cool. So I'll plug her because she's fucking awesome. Awesome. Um, yeah, I guess just plugging, having these more kind of conversations. Yeah. You know what I mean? I love it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, bye. All right, y'all. That's this week's episode of the Working Class Acts podcast. We'll see you next week. Bye!
